Vets4pets/going it alone

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Susan Read — Fri, 03 May 2013 06:53:12 GMT

Not all CC practices are locked out overnight. I worked in one for a couple of years, and the on call vets went in both to see OOH cases and check in patients. i don't know if that was only because there was no out of hours provider, store policy or down to a suitable layout/back door.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Hanna Bennett — Thu, 02 May 2013 20:33:33 GMT

scary thought alert - one of our new vns came from a CC background and informed me the other day that due to the practice being located in a Pets At Home store, the doors were locked at 8pm and no one was allowed back on site until 8am. Inpatients that could afford it travelled to Vets Now overnight but there would sometimes be inpatients left on site during this time with no possible supervision due to cost isssues. Could you deal with that possibility? i know i couldn't!

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Cool — Wed, 01 May 2013 18:10:41 GMT

I agree totally with you Clive. I wanted to do a JVP few years ago but decided against it in the end. I feel corporates are profiting off the vet and we as a profession do not seem to see that yet. The JVP business model will never work without a vet, so I think the vet should get a better deal than they are currently getting in the JVP set up. I decided to be a locum in the end. Not sure what the next step will be but I have started looking into other businesses.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Richard Powell — Wed, 01 May 2013 14:38:26 GMT

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I worked for Vets4Pets for 5 years recruiting vets into partnerships with them. As a result, I know their business very, very well. I have to say I really enjoyed working for them and talk daily to many of the partners, both as customers ( I own Bright Leaf Recruitment) and also friends. Having taken nearly 30 partners through the process in my time, the vast majority are dong well and believe they made the right decision, thankfully; otherwise I would lose sleep...

Having also set up businesses personally in the past I can say it is always hard work. For a vet, going solo or with a JV there is no difference there. The biggest challenge in this industry seems to be where vets assume that they will be good at all aspects of the business (echoed by John Bonner, The Veterinary Business Journal No 122 May 2013 page 8) but then struggle. Personally, I can only assume that having different experts to turn to when things get difficult must be a bonus, even if fees are paid for this.

In relation to the contract, yes it was long but did protect both parties.

My advice would be to make the call, and discover the facts for yourself. Most of the barriers I came up against were generally the same and were unwarranted. You will soon know if it is right or wrong for you. Feel free to contact me directly if you would like to find out more about my experience with Vets4Pets.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

salome2001 — Wed, 01 May 2013 14:10:08 GMT

I looked into V4P very briefly as they advertised that they were opening a practice - sorry, "a business opportunity" pretty much in my back yard. From what I could work out, you paid them £30K for some kind of buy-in, then had to take out a loan- which they organised and administered- for another £250K and then they took a further whatever of your turnover (not profit) every year in addition to you paying them back the loan.

Furthermore, your brand spanking new practice premises would never be owned by you but only on a 10 year lease. And if you wanted to get out, you had to find a buyer for your share, or you were stuck.

I didn't think it was for me, especially the getting out bit, the fact that I would never own the bricks and mortar, and at least in my part of the world, £280K would buy me a fair starting practice without all the red tape.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Steve Johnson — Tue, 23 Apr 2013 23:54:09 GMT

I love the fact that the page upon which this forum thread was pasted carried an ad for a JVP...

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Moira Hamilton — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 23:55:17 GMT

I seriously thought about becoming a JVP with CC, but ran away after the information day, know why they left the finances to the end of the day as I certainly would have left a lot earlier if they had covered that.

One of my many problems was what was the point of being a JVP if I was securing the whole amount of the purchase price, not much joint about that! Also the A and B shares, the A ones that the JVP gets give you the profits but the B ones can always out vote you! My husband also asked the question, since CC and Vets4Pets are now under the one umbrella, they are owned by American financiers, if any of the companies they have bought, whether it's the Pets at Home shop not doing well but the vets are packed and making lots of profit, it would not stop them shutting down that store, leaving you without a place for your practice and you would have to buy in all over again if that happened. Also gradually increasing the size of your practice isn't an option since you only have a small area in somebody else's building. Not owning the building will make getting finance much more difficult as well.

You have to look into both options really well and decide what would suit you better, it may not suit everyone, but it obviously does suit a lot of people and thought there are lots of negative points on this thread, mine included, it may just suit you. Just make sure you do all the research and do what feels right for you, just keep your wits about you, good luck!

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:47:39 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

KOYLI

[/quote]

King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry?

[/quote]

Well done

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:13:24 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

KOYLI

[/quote]

King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry?

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Bob Russell — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:08:28 GMT

JVP's are set up by the company to benefit the company.

They will only look after the individual if it suits them. This is the way of business.

If you are not generating the turnover they will not be overly sympathetic because they know the model works for them at other sites.

You are paying for the brand!

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Braden Collins — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 00:19:09 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Braden Collins"]Part of what I was trying to get across (and obviously doing it quite poorly) is that if you go it alone you don't have to do all the paperwork yyourself, you can get someone else to do it for you which will free you up to do the other jobs (I think that is a big part of the appeal of these JVP's, or at least they sell it as a big plus) and you can do it for a LOT less than 20% of practice turn over.[/quote]

Well there I would certainly agree.

[quote user="Braden Collins"]If you hate the idea of needing to manage people and deal with problems as they come up (some days every employer just wants everyone to go away) and you're more interested in just getting a bigger pay packet, the JVP may be the way forward.[/quote]

I doubt it. Better to look (aggressively?) for a bigger pay packet, whether within your present employment or by finding another post or by getting yourself a speciality. This JVP looks to me like the worst of both worlds: you're still not much more than an employee, you have to do what you're told, but you haven't got the benefits of employment (security, sick pay, paid CPD, subs paid, legal protection, etc etc......) you still have to worry about pushing turnover and pushing profit, you still have to manage staff in the daily round........... Forget it. Find some premises where you can both live and work and stick your plate up.

[/quote] I'd have to agree with Evelyn there too. Doesn't sound like a lot of benefit in a jvp. For me our aggressive growth isn't so much about the pay packet (though that's a nice bonus) as the challenge of trying to grow a business and brand. The turnover and pay is just a way of keeping score.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 18:35:03 GMT

Well there I would certainly agree.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Braden Collins — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 15:27:39 GMT

The practice was being run quite poorly when we took over, which I think is at least part of why we have had fairly rapid growth. I think the principles are still pretty much the same other than we had a bit of a client base to start with. I more put that point out there as an alternative path to practice ownership other than JVP or opening a new clinic, as buying an established clinic gives a source of income and the chance to go it alone. Maybe the original poster should look at businesses within the local are and see if any may be in a position to sell.

What we try do do is have a very "systemised" business, where everything is written down how things are done, when they are done, etc so the person doing our accounts or any other work can do it to the same standards every time. This makes it very easy for us to know the work is being done to the exact standard we require, and an easy way to monitor it.

I honestly find I don't have the time for the paperwork as there is a lot of other things I am working on within the business, but for me I also know that I'm no good at paperwork. I'm too much of a dreamer and am always looking for the next thing to do rather than focusing on the detail. Our business coach refers to the 3 mind of the business owner - the technician who does the work and wants to get the work done without any problems or issues coming up, then manager who makes sure the work gets done and is done well, and the entrepreneur who is the dreamer and the one who wants to push the business forward. I know I'm a solid technician and have a fairly strong entrepreneur streak, but my manager side is lacking so for me to try to do the paperwork would lead to a mess which would leave our accountant pulling his hair out.

Part of what I was trying to get across (and obviously doing it quite poorly) is that if you go it alone you don't have to do all the paperwork yyourself, you can get someone else to do it for you which will free you up to do the other jobs (I think that is a big part of the appeal of these JVP's, or at least they sell it as a big plus) and you can do it for a LOT less than 20% of practice turn over.

A couple more thoughts on the orininal post - I think one advantage of doing the JVP approach is that it is very like having a franchise in any other business. You don't ahve to worry so much about the marketing, branding, various systems, etc, so that is where the real time and money saving will be. The trade off is you won't have much say in them either. The other big advantage of a franchise type system such as a JVP is they have proven the business model before you buy in, so you know what the do works and you're business will more than likely do well.

I think anyone who wants to go into practice ownership needs to seriously ask themselves why they want to do it. If it is for greater freedom in how to deal with various cases or issues, going it alone will be the best way. If it is because you enjoy management and the challenge of building a business, once again going it alone is the go. If you hate the idea of needing to manage people and deal with problems as they come up (some days every employer just wants everyone to go away) and you're more interested in just getting a bigger pay packet, the JVP may be the way forward. For me a JVP would have been the wrong thing because I knew what I wanted to do with a business, and to be confined by a JVP would have been no better than working for someone else. However, if your dreams and ambitions are different to mine, you may find a JVP works quite well.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 14:39:20 GMT

Yeah. But Braden, as you told us, you were able to walk straight in to a practice (in which you were already employed) which was already running quite nicely. This thread has been largely about someone setting up from scratch.

I can assure you that it is perfectly possible to do all the veterinary work and the paperwork (thus retaining proper control over the paperwork and ensuring it is done as you want it) and spend lots time with your wife and four children.

Each to their own. I confess that your views of life and of practice are not mine.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Braden Collins — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 01:02:59 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Braden Collins"]I expect to pay myself around $80/hour, so it would be crazy for me to do work that I can pay someone $30/hour to do the same job?[/quote]

Nope. You can set any figure you like on what you "expect to pay yourself", what you will actually get comes in through the cashbox. If you pay someone £30 to do something, that's £30 less for you. You'll still have time to do all that deep thinking about developing new ideas and income streams.

Mind you, there's lots of stuff you don't need to do at all. Reading management magazines, analysing your KPI, APBS, MPB, KOYLI, NIK, NAK, PADYWAK and so on. Save your time and energy.

[/quote]

In the short term that may be true, but if you can use that time to work on your marketing, training, practice policies and systems, etc you can make that time worth much more. That $30 sacrificed now can come back many times over with the work I can do in that time.

We've got plans for pretty aggressive growth. We are growing through offering very good service every time. We took on another vet before we reached capacity so it would free up more of our time to keep developing more ideas and projects.

As an example, we recently had a senior pet focus month. We got a pet food company on board and offered a free bag of food with every senior pet consult. They produced ads for us as well, so it cost us very little. We spent around 10 hours developing this. As a result of this we had 30 of our clients come in for a senior pet consult, around 20 new clients come in for the consults (most of them have now stayed with us), then we had a lot of work flow on from it such as dental work and tumour removals. We worked out that those 10 hours added around $20000 to our turnover over 2 months, and is still benefiting us with the clients we gained and the subsequent word of mouth client gain.

We're now currently working on setting our clinic up with online booking systems, a mobile vet service operating from the clinic, and a branch clinic, as well as renovating our current building. If they work as well as I believe they will (we've done the market research) the time spend organising these will be worth well over $30/hour. If I was doing work that someone else could do, I wouldn't have the chance to get any of these projects off the ground, and I'd still be in the same situation in 2 years time.

I certainly find that while I am doing other things I have time to come up with plenty of ideas. I just feel that if I was doing all the smaller tasks I wouldn't have the time to do anything about the big ideas.

Of course it all depends on what each persons dreams are for their practice. If someone is happy with a smallish practice that provides a good steady income and doesn't have plans for significant growth, then doing the paperwork, etc themselves may make perfect sense as there isn't the drain on their time of developing other projects.

I also tend to think of the cost of family life. For me I am planning the business to give me what I want out of life. If I was having to do a full day of vet work then go home to do the paperwork, I would be a slave to the business and my family life would suffer. I wouldn't look at getting someone else to do a job as $30 out of my pocket, I see it as an hour to spend with my wife and baby.

Maybe the way to think about the JVP fees is to work out what it would cost to employ someone to do your paperwork, or outsource it. I think you would find it costs considerably less than 20% of your clinic turnover, and in many cases you could probably employ 1-2 full time people to do that work and still be ahead.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

rjhvet — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 23:31:06 GMT

Hi All,

The only JVP ( the old fashioned name is franchise) I would consider is a McDonalds, there is no difference in quality of burgers , or nobody cares ....No emotional attachment to a burger.

My family background is in business not in the veterinary profession, we carefully looked at all options, JVP's charge management fees as a percentage of TURNOVER, there may never be any profit. Remember most large companies go for high turnover at very low margins ( low cost vaccines for example), the company will get their % percentage of the turnover from the partner even if there is no profit. If you do not understand this pay a good accountant to explain it to you. Why do you think they offer a salary from the start, all business startups realise that you cannot generate a full salary to start with, you cannot generate money from fresh air......

If two friends are setting up together, both agree to work part-time to start with , and get a salary from other part-time / locum work.

If you really want to work for yourself then do it, if you don't then you are better off staying as an employee in a practice who value you. Entering into a JVP (franchise) means you are working for someone else, not for you, and you are then tied to it.

I disagree with the above point that selling a JVP is easy, that's what they would say wouldn't they ......

Sadly our profession is full of extremely bright, academic people but many do not understand the financial implications of their decisions.

Apologies for lack of detail, falling asleep over computer !

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:38:31 GMT

I have worked in both Vets4Pets clinics and Companion Care. Just as a locum but in both for quite some time. I don't have any knowledge of the inner workings but I can tell you that I felt the CC clinics had a much more relaxed atmosphere and attitude when it came to the management. This was consistent over a couple of different practices of each, that were very varied in the personality of the JVP and how busy they were.

My husband has recently become a clinical director for a branch of White Cross vets and is really enjoying it. He works sole charge but has a part-timer so does 4 day week and every other Saturday. He is responsible for the running of the practice and has complete clinical freedom. The company pay very well, support him brilliantly (he's learning loads about the financial side of running a vets) and are generally really good to work for. It might not be what you are looking for but something like that could be a good half way house.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Bob Russell — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:02:36 GMT

In the early days you have the time to learn how to do the management tasks. If you are too busy you are pretty bl**dy lucky and will be able to afford someone that can!

We pay a bookkeeper (very good one) for about £50 a month. She uses a combination of our Sage and hers. Included all the wages/VAT/tax/NI etc etc. We have a good accountant and our head nurse has quite taken to the daily tasks, knowing the bookkeeper is at the end of a phone or email. The bookkeeper is also a client now so we get a little of it back!

I worry a bit about our lack of marketing but our clients don't seem to mind but then we are not doing consults for 50p or vaccinations for a quid so we don't need to make up the lost income with being pushy or hitting targets.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:33:19 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]I expect to pay myself around $80/hour, so it would be crazy for me to do work that I can pay someone $30/hour to do the same job?[/quote]

Mind you, there's lots of stuff you don't need to do at all. Reading management magazines, analysing your KPI, APBS, MPB, KOYLI, NIK, NAK, PADYWAK and so on. Save your time and energy.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Braden Collins — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:39:33 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Point being, while the management fees are probably a pretty decent chunk of money, independents don't get admin for free either; the piper must always be paid, either in time, staff, or cash. Back of the envelope, you might find that your costs aren't actually that much lower.

[/quote]

Only if you cost up your own time in money. And even if you do, so what? You haven't actually paid out that money. One "resource" (trendy word) you do have in abundance is time and it is not costing you anything. Moreover, if you do the admin yourself, you get it done exactly as you like it.

[/quote] Your own time shold always be thought of in terms of money. You may spend a lot of time doing stuff you could pay someone very little for such as book keeping when you could be better off using it to develop new ideas and income streams. It can be tough in those early times to find the cash to pay someone else to do the small jobs, but it you use that spare time well it can earn you a lot more in the future. I expect to pay myself around $80/hour, so it would be crazy for me to do work that I can pay someone $30/hour to do the same job?

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Rob Loxley — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:36:26 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]if you become phenomenally successful/work really hard, then costs to the management don't continue to increase that much![/quote]

Pets at Home surely wouldn't be buying V4P if it wasn't making a good amount of money out of its JVPs...

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Clive Ansell — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:54:41 GMT

I looked fairly seriously at becoming a JVP several years ago, but was put off mainly by a family friend commercial lawyer who looked at a draft copy of a contract. He thought it was all weighted in their favour and if things didn't work out you could lose all of your money as well as being dumped at very short notice if the figures didn't hit the spot, his advice was to avoid it and set up your own practice, in your own name, with your own plate on the wall.

I think around £30,000 was needed to buy in to a JVP then. There was clinical freedom, but it was limited; practice design and equipment was their choice, preferred drugs list, a lot of emphasis of money making unnecessary interventions such as pre op blood tests and IVFT for cat castrates etc. and numerous specials and offers such as initial £10 consults and £10 vaccines determined by head office and not by the practice or JVP locally.

I was made vacuous promises such as "you could eventually earn £100k a year" even if you maths isn't that good, most folk could deduct that you would need to do one hell of a lot of £10 vaccines and £25 cat spays to clear £100k after paying around 15% to management and all other staff!

It seemed to me one would just be a glorified employee; having to work under someone else's name, to their rules, but without the security of employment and benefits such sickness and holiday pay, then have to take financial responsibility too.

The circle I cannot square is the number of directors and department heads at head office; presumably earning high salaries and driving nice cars etc. The only source of their income is the veterinary surgeon on the floor doing veterinary work - doesn't add up to me???

In addition, I have done a small of locum work for corporates in JVP practices and have been treated abysmally on 3 occasions. The last was in 2010 when 3 weeks agreed work was cancelled at 3 days notice without a reason being given. This was a head office decision not a local JVP one, so one wonders how much "freedom" local practices and JVP's actually have . I finished up being paid after getting heavy with them, but a reason was never given. Their total disregard for how they treat people would worry me if was going to become a JVP and be a partner with them.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:20:05 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[/quote]

I accept your point fully; I was writing my reply to Gillian as you wrote yours.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:18:08 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"] I think they also realised we would possibly set up in oposition which would devalue their practice anyway,[/quote]

Oooh.

Re: Vets4pets/going it alone

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:17:05 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Therefore, time is less of an issue and spending it doing your own admin is not a problem and keeps costs down.

[/quote]

Yes, it keeps costs down, but it's not free. I understand that it reduces your outgoing money, but treating your time as free isn't fair to you. I'm sure you willingly did it, and I'm sure it was a perfectly fine solution, and let's face it, it worked () - but you probably spent more time, less money, a JVP probably spent more money, less time.

Which one's the right way? Well, you're still in business, and so are they, so you're probably both getting something right. We're scientists in an emotional world, and that's a tightrope that is never easy to walk.