Coffee

Re: Coffee

Bob Russell — Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:06:11 GMT

Charities and dog wardens have done cheap or free microchipping at shows and events around here for years. Peoples faces drop when I tell them our chips have built in thermometers. "We were not told you could get those!!"

Free, cheap and perceived value don't always go together!

I still think the charities should not be spending donated money on chips for all!!

Re: Coffee

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:50:12 GMT

I don't think charities offering their services FOC is such a new thing actually.

Re: Coffee

Martin Whiting — Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:59:57 GMT

Just perhaps to wrap this one up.

It looks like someone has taken the jump...

https://twitter.com/thenerdyvet/status/302437395373096960

Re: Coffee

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:28:05 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]As OP I see an end now to "Coffee". Mr G doesn't get it and some think it was about stray dogs.[/quote]

OK, so was it drawing a parallel between giving clients free coffee and free microchips? i.e. both marketing exercises? Otherwise I'm stumped!

[quote user="J G Wray"]so as I said to Mrs Mostyn, since Mr G is indulging you both,[/quote]

Er, am I? Indulging anyone, that is?

Didn't mean to.

I've just stated my own opinion, which is that I have my doubts about whether free microchipping will represent a good marketing opportunity, but I agree that since it is going to happen anyway, of course it makes sense to make the most of any opportunities it presents.

Re: Coffee

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:01:15 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Vets up and down the country give advice on dairy farming , the bulk of which will never own a cow never mind a dairy farm. Not owning or running an organisation doesn't invalidate your opinion on it.[/quote]

Of course not. But if a farmer says "ah, but it doesn't work that way, we've tried several times and this is what happened........" the vet might concede that his suggestions made from theory might not be so good after all. And a vet who'd never run a farm might be thought to have a bit of a nerve lecturing on "How to run a dairy farm". Would you like to be taught how to extract teeth by someone who had never extracted any?

[/quote] I would certainly listen to the opinion of somebody who had spent time studying how a lot of people extract teeth and could share information about ways that were more effective across a population. You could argue that his opinion is more valid that the opinion of one person who has extracted loads. One person could insist that X-rays are unnecessary. Where as somebody studying a population could appreciate the benefits without actually extracting one. A dairy farmer may be of the opinion that increasing stall sizes is of little benefit to his business where as the vet having seen it many times before would appreciate how it would benefit the business better. A business owner could have a 5 year strategy, a business adviser may have seen that same strategy in action several times and better appreciate its strengths and weaknesses than the owner without having to own a business himself.

[/quote]

Missing the point. Never mind.

Re: Coffee

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:50:02 GMT

I was not saying that all of Martin's comments were invalid - of course he makes some very good points. But not being a practice owner himself, he is looking at the situation from a different perspective. That was my only point!

Re: Coffee

Mark Holmes — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:49:05 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Re: Coffee

J G Wray — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:49:02 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Yes/no will suffice in the future[/quote]

Thanks for the direction.

[quote user="James Laidlaw"] I have no idea what you meant by what you wrote[/quote]

Sorry about that

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]OK JGW, you seem to want me to respond to you yet you have answered very few of my questions. (And certainly not the first one - why should we be expected to give away our services for free?)[/quote]

I have, but if you didn't understand then sorry about that.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I am looking at a bigger picture than you and Martin. Practice ownership means you think about more than just your turnover this week, this month or even this year.[/quote]

I'm writing this down...

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]What WILL happen is that owners will then always expect to get a free microchip for their dog. It won't be long until they question why they have to pay for their other pets - afterall, it can't be expensive as it can be given away for free. [/quote]

Are you sure? Prescriptions were charged for then free and now...

I wonder why you concentrate on the cost of the service provided rather than the value.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] It also gives the strong impression that charity/vets/government are happy to subsidise some pet ownership as, afterall, it is a welfare issue. Not a good position for the profession to be in really.[/quote]

Eh? Isn't that the status quo where charities operate now?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]In summary, I personally think free microchips will have no big impact on my business, either positive or negative[/quote]

Fair enough

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] I DO think it is damaging to the profession and the responsibilities of pet ownership.[/quote]

It's an opinion

JGW

Re: Coffee

James Laidlaw — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:39:53 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Would you like to be taught how to extract teeth by someone who had never extracted any?[/quote]

Given how much I've changed my technique after sound veterinary dentist advice and cpd, I am inclined to think I was...

Re: Coffee

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:34:16 GMT

Re: Coffee

Mark Holmes — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:19:45 GMT

I am not suggesting that you don't get something from ownership you obviously do but seeing a population gives you a clearer perspective on many issues. I had a client claim that because she had owned a handful of collies over the years she knew that they aren't snappy. Well we all know they can be. Vets up and down the country give advice on dairy farming , the bulk of which will never own a cow never mind a dairy farm. Not owning or running an organisation doesn't invalidate your opinion on it.

Re: Coffee

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:04:51 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]When I point out I see 20 - 40 animals a day every day and have done for 12 years they understand. I don't have to own a dog to know dogs.[/quote]

I disagree. Owning a dog gives you a very different perspective to treating them - and I do think it gives you a different approach to how you treat the dog and, especially, its owner.

Anyway, back to the OP....

OK JGW, you seem to want me to respond to you yet you have answered very few of my questions. (And certainly not the first one - why should we be expected to give away our services for free?)

I am looking at a bigger picture than you and Martin. Practice ownership means you think about more than just your turnover this week, this month or even this year. Maybe you will get more footfall this year, or for the next couple of years, when you give away a free service. I disagree that it will generate profit, but that is by the by. What WILL happen is that owners will then always expect to get a free microchip for their dog. It won't be long until they question why they have to pay for their other pets - afterall, it can't be expensive as it can be given away for free. It also gives the strong impression that charity/vets/government are happy to subsidise some pet ownership as, afterall, it is a welfare issue. Not a good position for the profession to be in really.

In summary, I personally think free microchips will have no big impact on my business, either positive or negative. I DO think it is damaging to the profession and the responsibilities of pet ownership.

Re: Coffee

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:56:28 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Hmm, this from a man who practices in a community which owes its economic existence primarily to its University and the Uni diaspora[/quote]

And slate. And agriculture. And mussel fisheries. However: I may have longer and more intelligent discussions with clients from the University than you would dream of, JG. Especially about teaching.

Departments of Music, Physical Education, Arid Zone Studies, Italian spring to mind.

(Incidentally: you mean "practises". Verb. Unless you are American?)(Sorry.)

[quote user="J G Wray"]why not just send it my way?[/quote]

Love to, but what is it you want sent your way?

Re: Coffee

James Laidlaw — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:53:25 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"] Are you volunteering to be the face of free microchipping JGW?[/quote]

On balance, microchipping dogs is a Good thing and an opportunity (sic) for practices, so, as a face in a montage, a sea, of like minded professionals then why not?

[/quote]

Yes/no will suffice in the future (ie: I have no idea what you meant by what you wrote).

Re: Coffee

Martin Whiting — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 08:44:48 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="martin whiting"]No i don't always think that owning a business is helpful to modify theory - however studying multiple businesses is.[/quote]

Well, theory never tested by practical application is bound to be never proved wrong.

[/quote]

I think theoretical physicists, jurisprudence academics and political theorists (to name just a few) would refute the logic of this statement. The validity of a theory does not always need practical testing to be found incorrect. This is not a personal attack, but rather just to explain that actually much can be achieved through detailed and robust logical thought prior to moving a single muscle. However, I don't agree that theoretical investigation of concepts is a "new paradigm", the Socratic method of investigation is one of the known oldest. It is also the cheapest.

As I mentioned earlier, the discussion has been interesting and JGW has done a great job here is bring out lots of different views on the matter. It is has very enlightening for me to find out the diversity of views and approaches of some of our profession which is great. I am not in practice so I don't often get this opportunity.

I look forward to next topic!

Re: Coffee

J G Wray — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 08:26:03 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"] Are you volunteering to be the face of free microchipping JGW?[/quote]

On balance, microchipping dogs is a Good thing and an opportunity (sic) for practices, so, as a face in a montage, a sea, of like minded professionals then why not?

Re: Coffee

James Laidlaw — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:51:26 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Well, theory never tested by practical application is bound to be never proved wrong.[/quote]

Hmm, this from a man who practices in a community which owes its economic existence primarily to its University and the Uni diaspora. Do your clients know what you think of academics?

I'm in general practice and have owned the practice for more than twenty years, so as I said to Mrs Mostyn, since Mr G is indulging you both, why not just send it my way?

JGW

[/quote] Are you volunteering to be the face of free microchipping JGW?

Re: Coffee

J G Wray — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:22:57 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Well, theory never tested by practical application is bound to be never proved wrong.[/quote]

Hmm, this from a man who practices in a community which owes its economic existence primarily to its University and the Uni diaspora. Do your clients know what you think of academics?

I'm in general practice and have owned the practice for more than twenty years, so as I said to Mrs Mostyn, since Mr G is indulging you both, why not just send it my way?

JGW

Re: Coffee

Mark Holmes — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:19:13 GMT

Martin has provided some very useful comments and I do take issue with the criticism that he has never owned a practice or lab. We hear people daily claiming to know about dogs because they have gad them all their lives. When questioned this amounts to 4-5 dogs. When I point out I see 20 - 40 animals a day every day and have done for 12 years they understand. I don't have to own a dog to know dogs. Studying multiple businesses gives a perspective you don't get from owning one. It's very similar to the "My clients expect x" argument. I'm sure they do. That's because you have managed to retain clients that expect x. It doesn't mean there are no clients expecting the rest of the alphabet out there.

Re: Coffee

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 00:37:12 GMT

[quote user="martin whiting"]

Or perhaps Evelyn. Just work out how not to suffer.

A negative approach to business will be self-affirming.

[/quote]

Much obliged.

[quote user="martin whiting"]No i have never run a lab.[/quote]

But you teach people how to. I see.

[quote user="martin whiting"]No i don't always think that owning a business is helpful to modify theory - however studying multiple businesses is.[/quote]

Well, theory never tested by practical application is bound to be never proved wrong.

I think this is clearly a whole new paradigm and we should leverage our synergies to deliver a concordance in enhancementation of the win-win stakeholder experience in solutionisation.

Re: Coffee

J G Wray — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:23:31 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]The problem is, if someone has thrown their dog out or has no intention of reclaiming it, what difference does it make if it is chipped? You cannot force someone to either reclaim their dog, or pay any money towards its rehoming. It will not help the stray dog issue.[/quote]

Different thread.

As OP I see an end now to "Coffee". Mr G doesn't get it and some think it was about stray dogs. Funny old world.

JGW

Re: Coffee

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 19:08:14 GMT

[quote user="Helen Wallace"] I think it will improve lost dogs getting home, I don't think it will make much difference to irresponsible dog owners.[/quote]

The problem is, if someone has thrown their dog out or has no intention of reclaiming it, what difference does it make if it is chipped? You cannot force someone to either reclaim their dog, or pay any money towards its rehoming. It will not help the stray dog issue. People who want to find their lost dog may do so more quickly and easily, but it is likely they would have tracked it down eventually anyway. No?

Re: Coffee

Helen Wallace — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 17:51:38 GMT

I'm a bit late to this discussion but I'll add my 2 cents worth anyway

I'm an assistant, not a practice owner and I've had mixed expreience with doing 'free' work:

Dental checks- mainly attended by bonded clients of the practice, good opportuntiy to discuss dental care and did generate extra revenue at a quiet time of year. We did gain the occasional new client but not many.

DT neutering- initially cost u a fair bit as we had a policy of not charging for any post op complications and we saw a much higher rate with these guys (no change in proceedue or drug use, so assume client compliance re post op instructions). Eventually we had to issue buster collars and make clear post op tx would need paid for- suddenly far fewer issues. We did gain some clients here, most of the will come to us if the dog's sick variety but some who started coming for preventative visits as well.

CPL free neutering- disater. As anyone qualified we saw losts of ex breeding cats, cats we would have been spaying anyway but were now doing for a lower income and cats who we never saw again. Staff were also under a lot of pressure as everybody wanted to book in while it was free (time limited) regardless of how old their cat was or how busy we were... "No I'm not spaying your 8 week old kitten on a Saturday. Come back in 3 months time... yes you will have to pay but it will be safer for your cat" I don't think we gained a single new client.

Free chipping, well and good if you've got the time/staff free but if not it will eat into your turnover. I think it will improve lost dogs getting home, I don't think it will make much difference to irresponsible dog owners.

Re: Coffee

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:26:55 GMT

[quote user="martin whiting"]There was not intended to be anything patronising there at all.[/quote]

For what it's worth, I didn't read it that way.

[quote user="martin whiting"]I shall exit this particular discussion here. [/quote]

That's a shame, because I was genuinely hoping you might help develop this a little further.

Thus far, the discussion has concerned strategy. But strategy remains just a theory until it manifests as a tactic (if that makes sense).

The first thing to consider is: What IS the proposition to the consumer that walks in with the unchipped pet?

[quote user="martin whiting"]the need for a vet practice in their life and the role a vet can play in making their animal more to them than it already is.[/quote]

As written, this doesn't seem like a plausible proposition to me. It seems too strong. Incidentally, I mean that as a dog owner thinking about the relationship with my own vet, which would be better described as: someone to go to for vaccines and when the dog is ill (muddied slightly by the fact that I've met my vet outside work).

Martin, unless you can define what you mean by 'needing a practice in my life' or 'what a vet can do to make my animal more to me', I don't buy it (I don't mean this post to read as argumentatively as it probably reads, or to be discourteous, just saying what I think).

I wonder, thinking aloud, whether a stronger, more believable consumer proposition would be something more like:

"You've come for a free chip, which might help reunite you with your dog if it gets lost. If you come for an annual checkup, we stand a better chance of picking up and treating diseases which otherwise might cause you to lose your dog forever."

I haven't worded that very well, I know.

Then implement various tactics alongside that message in order to get them to return for a checkup.

Incidentally

[quote user="martin whiting"]I do disagree with " Is it their response to a question you ask when they arrive at reception? Is it the car they drive or the clothes they wear?", it is more about why they have that dog, what they want from that dog and what you as a practice can do for them to help meet their needs. All the time, the focus will be the welfare of the dog.[/quote]

I knew that would read a little too calculating for many/most. Couple of things: I do not mean to say that the welfare of those animals who you have qualified as belonging to less profitable customers should be compromised. Of course not! Just that provided the non-profitable customer gets a solid basic level of service, and their animal's welfare needs are met, you need to have a way to make sure that the profitable customers are identified and nourished.

Re: Coffee

J G Wray — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:03:21 GMT

[quote user="martin whiting"]A negative approach to business will be self-affirming.[/quote]

Neat. True.

Anecdote time:

There is a practice in the South of England which styles itself as being in what might be called the "Waitrose" segment of practice in its locale. They do pro bono and subsidised charity work for a local rehoming/rescue organisation. They are very clear about the point of this. They wish to expose these clients to what their pets could have and they want those clients to talk to friends.They invite "suitable" clients to join their "family".

I will not discuss their criteria and method, suffice to say that they are crystal about value, particularly the value of their healthy pet club, to all clients including the charity clients, not cost.

Their leader is the charity. Not everyone would want or wish this, but if you cannot expose new clients to the value you offer then you will not build your client base. The microchip costs nothing, the service of implanting it has no value, but if they're there then you have the chance to articulate the value of your practice. Or not. I would prefer not from my competitors.

JGW