Not my finest hour

Re: Not my finest hour

Sarah Keir — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:15:51 GMT

Thanks for the discussion anon - it reminded me to double check the cats before proceeding to shave and slice them and this week I had two brother cats that were both crytorchid, not picked up at admission by VN! I thank you again!

Re: Not my finest hour

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 23:19:40 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]A mistake such as this is hardly a matter for the RCVS disciplinary process, it's an honest mistake and should be seen as such.[/quote]

It's nothing to do with RCVS anyway. There's no misconduct.

Re: Not my finest hour

Andrew Kent — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 23:10:28 GMT

A mistake such as this is hardly a matter for the RCVS disciplinary process, it's an honest mistake and should be seen as such.

Re: Not my finest hour

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 23:04:10 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The nurse is doing this under orders as part of her employment.[/quote]

So assume a fully qualified, listed VN who are now accountable and can be disciplined. Given the task of sexing a cat before neutering surgery, hopefully a task in their capability. They get it wrong, I'd say that is their fault.

[/quote]

Of course it is. But Gareth said "where the buck stops".

Re: Not my finest hour

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 22:55:59 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The nurse is doing this under orders as part of her employment.[/quote]

Where I have attempted to spay toms it's been where the sex check has somehow been missed.

Re: Not my finest hour

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 22:33:28 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."]i wonder whether now we have RVNS where the buck stops if its a mistake made on admission? I assume it will always be the surgeon. i certainly wouldn't let a vn take the blame, but who is responsible for admission/ pre op checks done by a rvn?[/quote]

The nurse is doing this under orders as part of her employment. Responsibility rests with the practice owner.

Re: Not my finest hour

Gareth C. — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:34:56 GMT

and watch for the recently aquired rescue cat that receives a quick check for balls on admission that turns out to be a neutered male.

i wonder whether now we have RVNS where the buck stops if its a mistake made on admission? I assume it will always be the surgeon. i certainly wouldn't let a vn take the blame, but who is responsible for admission/ pre op checks done by a rvn?

Re: Not my finest hour

MeeraM — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:52:39 GMT

I haven't (yet) tried to remove a uterus from a male cat, but I did open up to spay what I (and a colleague) thought on abdominal palpation was a pregnant cat - to be confronted with a necrotic intussusception.......

Re: Not my finest hour

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:12:10 GMT

I think it is time for the OP to 'come out'

Re: Not my finest hour

Anita Fox — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:31:16 GMT

Suzanne, you are not alone. My boss (at least 10 years qualified at the time) booked it in and I (new grad then) tried to spay it. It dawned on me after much searching for a uterus that a pregnant uterus would be easy to find. And it was an entire tom!! Sent him home castrated and unbunged. The owners did think it was odd that "she" hadn't had kittens in the 5 years they'd owned her. A few months later they brought in a shelter cat they'd just adopted to have her spay sutures removed and commented on her slightly distended abdomen. I said at least this time we knew she couldn't be pregnant so the lumps must be faeces. They rang a couple of weeks later to say she'd had 3 kittens. Oops! The shelter vet was very.embarrassed.

Re: Not my finest hour

Jenny Smith — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 04:41:18 GMT

We had our year one VDS reunion and anyone who had attempted to spay a male cat was asked to put their hands in the air. More than half my year have managed it (myself included)

Re: Not my finest hour

Suzanne Kelly — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:21:12 GMT

Has anyone booked a male cat in for a - wait for it - PREGNANT cat spay! Saw "her" at the end of a very busy and stressful week. Hx of crying, also of diarrhoea. Cat had some form of enteritis whereby it had hard lumps of faeces floating in loops of bowel distended with diarrhoea. To a tired stressed vet this felt like foetuses. The worst part was I took it's temperature and failed to notice the large nuts in the way! Oh the shame. My trusting colleague tried to spay it the following day. I was at least 10 years qualified at the time. Morto doesn't even begin to describe it. So to Anon who's upset about trying to spay a tomcat, I don't know a vet who hasn't done that. I've yet to meet one who booked in a tom for a pregnant spay though! The ex lap cured all gut related issues thankfully

Re: Not my finest hour

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:48:59 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Thought I was just having a crap day with an illusive uterus (might just be me who has them).

[/quote]

Not just you, nearly ten years qualified and I still occasionaly struggle to find the damn thing.

Re: Not my finest hour

Mark Holmes — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:30:40 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Mind you, that moment when it dawns on you that it's a Tom Cat is exquisite. Somehow all of a sudden you know. Checking for nuts is a formality. I don't suppose there is an experience like it.

[/quote] Maybe finding out that the girl who has just beaten you at Billiards has posted your nuts on the Internet.

Re: Not my finest hour

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:12:06 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Because that's the compromise that me and my conscience have reached. Thirty-odd quid for the castrate (discounted in any case for the charity) allows me to feel a bit better - thanks to all for the kind words - makes me less likely to do it again and has also placated the rescue centre quickly and with the minimum of fuss. We've managed to turn around a right balls-up () into something vaguely positive and which they'll remember as much for my response as for the issue itself. Cheap at the price.[/quote]

I still don't quite get it. Do I understand that you are an assistant, that the practice will charge the charity thirty-odd pounds for the castrate, and that you personally will reimburse the charity? Why do you feel they need so much placating? As somebody said, they've had a cat neutered for a lot less than they were expecting to pay. A sincere apology for the unnecessary incision and sutures is all that is required, isn't it?

Re: Not my finest hour

Anthony Todd — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:42:42 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Still feeling pretty bl**dy stupid, though. And will certainly be doing all of my own admits from now on.[/quote]

One advantage of having done it once is that, next time, and there will be, you won't perform a major ex. lap looking for the absent uterus but immediately tell the nurse "don't look, feel!" as it's common for the testes not to be "visible" usually a young male.

Similarly another major ex.lap is avoided early in a definite female as often they've been previously spayed and you can confidently say "no uterus" quicker.

Re: Not my finest hour

Mark Holmes — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:22:30 GMT

Mind you, that moment when it dawns on you that it's a Tom Cat is exquisite. Somehow all of a sudden you know. Checking for nuts is a formality. I don't suppose there is an experience like it.

Re: Not my finest hour

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:58:54 GMT

I've done it too. No harm done. Still charged for the castrate.

Thought I was just having a crap day with an illusive uterus (might just be me who has them).

Re: Not my finest hour

David Mills — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:23:39 GMT

I've done it 3 times in the last week.

Re: Not my finest hour

Bob Russell — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:57:33 GMT

Did it once years ago. Have also clipped the flank before checking the nurse had checked (or not) the sex. So 1½ for me!!!

Re: Not my finest hour

Rajat — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:03:32 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Probably best be anonymous for this one.

Finally got around to attempting to spay a male cat. Owner, a local independent rescue charity, brought in a 5yo 'female' DLH with the express wish that it be spayed midline, to avoid spoiling the coat. Nurse admitted - usually do my own, but was beaten to it.

In the prep room, checked heart and mouth, all OK. Made a throwaway comment to admissions nurse about 'have you checked it's female, because I'm not going to' to be met with a smile.

Obese cat, but as soon as entered the cavity, obvious that no uterus to be found. Looked at nurse. Nurse checked cat. two testicles, duly despatched.

Next cat up, same charity. Charity insistent that hadn't been spayed, despite being a 5yo rescue. Flank approach, reasonably wide, no uterus. Colleague confirmed.

Third cat, from same charity. By now a nervous wreck. Finally performed a spay this morning - at the third time of asking.

Been in practice a long time. Never thought it would happen to me. My fault entirely - and I've made that perfectly plain within the practice - but a warning to all that we should always check ourselves even when nurse checked already, even if surreptitiously. I'll be making a donation to the charity to cover the cost of the neutering, but haven't been able to raise them on the phone yet so I don't know how the news will be received.

[/quote]

I've done it too - and I second Mark's comment!

As long as cat recovers OK, it's human error, and hopefully one you can just forget about after a nice glass of wine tonight. Seriously, it's not an unusual occurence.

Re: Not my finest hour

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:04:48 GMT

I had one yesterday, confirmed 2 testicles at 1st vacc, so d/t/k injection to anaesthetise it as I was doing about 3 things at once. Nurse came through to tell me it only had 1 ball - the other was retained inguinally. Cue phone call to owner who got quite irate that there would be an extra charge and didn't want to pay it, so the cat got an unplanned mid-morning nap. Whoops!

Re: Not my finest hour

Mark Holmes — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:01:57 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

Been there - nearly. I don't know why I checked, nurse had already shaved mid-line, but I had a look and found two proofs for it being a tom rather than female. Have been searching for non-existing uterus for ages in another cat, dripping with sweat when the nurse came in and announced: "By the way, one of them may be spayed already". Grrrrrrrr. But honestly, why do I have to check/do everything myself, what's the point of employing a nurse then? Surely they are able to tell a male from a female? I would be thoroughly annoyed with the nurse in the first place rather than myself if I told them to check.

[/quote] Frankly I would not be annoyed with anybody. We all make mistakes. Even if I had asked her to check these things happen.

Re: Not my finest hour

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:40:38 GMT

Re: Not my finest hour

Bibs — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:22:28 GMT

I've done it too.

Sometimes it's one of these things where everyone thought someone checked but no-body did.

Once the cat is knocked out and under a drape all scrubbed you assume they have been checked.

Lesson learnt, no major damage.