neglect case?

Re: neglect case?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Jan 2013 07:29:52 GMT

Decision made.

As far as whether the dog suffered or not....I, like everyone else here, have seen a lot of dogs in their terminal stages of decline. I have had numerous cases where I would have preferred to PTS earlier but have understood why it was not done - for very many and various reasons. However, I have never, and hope never to again, seen a dog as thin as this one! If someone is able to see their dog get into that condition, regardless of underlying causes, then it casts doubt on whether they can be trusted to care for animals -no?

Anyway, I will leave it at that and thank you all for your help.

Re: neglect case?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 23 Jan 2013 00:30:32 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"][quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

The problem is that now the dog is in our chiller, it can't really be reported anonymously. They would need the body and the owner's details from us in order to pursue the case. Do I have the right to provide either of these?.

I will certainly be ringing the VDS tomorrow, but I just wondered if anyone has dealt with anything similar?

[/quote] Receptionist rings RSPCA who come and request to see the body. RCVS have no jurisdiction. It is you who is regulated not her or the practice. You might be required to have a "disciplinary" to discuss matters of confidentiality but that could take place over a cup of tea and a biscuit! Edit: Sorry to be PC and all, it should say him/her or the practice.[/quote]

Sorry, but bah!

Gillian, if your conscience tells you to report this case to an appropriate authority; and you are pretty sure that either animal welfare or the public interest over-rides confidentiality; just get on and do it. Don't faff about gathering opinions of varying sanity from us. Don't do it anonymously or work dubious cop-out fiddles involving your receptionist: if you don't have the courage of your convictions, don't do it at all.

This is roughly what RCVS say to you, quite rightly, when you phone for advice. They phrase it more politely though.

Re: neglect case?

Mark Holmes — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:30:32 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I will certainly be ringing the VDS tomorrow, but I just wondered if anyone has dealt with anything similar?

Re: neglect case?

Utlendigur — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:07:53 GMT

The main concern is probably the condition of the other animals. Another possibility might be to phone the client and say that you were concerned at the condition of the dog that was PTS and it would be a good idea to check the rest over (free of charge even?). Then if, as sounds likely, she doesn't show up you could report her for failing to follow advice aswell as welfare concerns. Are the other animals also elderly?

Re: neglect case?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:06:36 GMT

Gillian - if they owe you money why not personally drop the bill in at the house? Might give you the opportunity to see how the other animals are. How is fluffy doing these days etc............

[Some of these cancer patients can get very thin very quickly. I' not convinced that they are 'suffering']

Re: neglect case?

Rajat — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:05:58 GMT

I agree with the others that reporting this lady is probably correct, if nothing else, for the sake of the other animals. If you have a working relationship with the local RSPCA inspectors that may be one route. It may be that the nurse/receptionist reports it. But, like for you and the others, her shifty manner and the poor condition of the dog would have given me the heads up that something ain't right.

If nothing else, if the RSPCA inspectors visit, at least its peace of mind that the other animals might not get brought down to you in this condition over the next couple of years...

Re: neglect case?

Colin Thomson — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:04:10 GMT

I once was involved with a very very thin old dog brought to us by the RSPCA. It looked horrendous, not only could you count every rib, you could have easily fitted a pencil in every intracostal space. It seemed obvious to us that it should have been put to sleep some time before, and that cruelty was involved. In the usual RSPCA way it was bled, scanned, xrayed etc and the results noted before it was euthanased. But there was not much to report - apart from its extreme thinness, there was not much that would have distinguished it from many other old dogs.

Eventually I stood in court and testified to the fact that I believed it had been neglected, in that it should have been euthansed much sooner. And as I recall, the case was won, and the owners were convicted. But from listening to the facts that emerged in the case they were not uncaring heartless people, rather owners who saw their dog fading before their eyes, but seemingly in little pain or discomfort, who only wished for their animal to pass away peacefully at home. The intervention of the RSPCA and ourselves certainly prevented that.

I don't know who was in the right, but I've never felt it was my finest hour.

Colin.

Re: neglect case?

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:00:45 GMT

An Inspector could turn up and ask to see this desperately thin animal that has been reported to them, and then find out more about what was actually happening, and check the other animals.

for all you know the dog could have been seen elsewhere and the client wanted someone different to actually put it to sleep. she may have been upset and unable to talk about it, who knows?I do agree that a prosecution is very unlikely at this point -after all they can always argue that the dog wasn't suffering if it was unconscious/ never seemed in pain etc.

things aren't always black and white, but ultimately you must do what you feel you must do. Personally i would not fob it off on the lay staff - that isn't fair, and you have as much right as they do to make an 'anonymous' report. If it is done quickly the owner may suspect but would not be sure who had done it anyway - could easily be a concerned neighbour who saw the condition the dog was in, after all.

Re: neglect case?

David Mills — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:50:29 GMT

It is unlikely that a prosecution would ensue from this case because the dog is dead, and there is little history with it (I assume, having not seen it for years) so it would be on forensics whereby they would have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that suffering had occurred. There is a huge grey area - the dog was thin, but did it suffer unnecessarily or was it bumbling along happily enough? These cases are much easier when the animal is still alive (but that is obv not a reason to keep it alive if it needs to die).

The point of reporting it would be for intervention with the animals that are still alive.

RCVS advice on this issue is the the usual fudge that it comes down to the individual's judgement - what may hamper you is that you only have a suspicion in this case and haven't seen the other animals recently (i.e. there are no ongoing serious medical issues that you know of). Your receptionists aren't bound by RCVS GtPC so get them to do it - they can remain anonymous - or simply do it yourself - the RCVS, no matter how foolhardy they appear at the best of times, would be closed down if they dared discipline a vet for breach of confidentiality made to protect the welfare of an animal.

Re: neglect case?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:46:27 GMT

Would you really need a full post mortem?; looking at the dog, taking photographs and recording its weight would support a case of causing unnecessary suffering in that it obviously should have been taken to a vet much sooner.

Re: neglect case?

Birte Toft — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:46:24 GMT

I once phoned the RCVS for advice on a vaguely similar case. They refused to give advice specific to the case I was dealing with, and simply pointed out that a) animal welfare overrides client confidentiality and any other concerns I might have, and b) a vet who fails to act on a reasonable suspicion of animal neglect or cruelty will be held responsible.

Re: neglect case?

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:42:38 GMT

^^^ why anonymous log in to ask a question? Best re-read the original post and your answer will be revealed.

As for Gillian's question, if you feel the animal was suffering then yes, report it. If you feel the animal was at the end stage of a long slow 'fade' then perhaps it didn't suffer and whatever the aesthetics of the case, perhaps no harm was done to the animal. you have to do what you feel is right, being the very experienced VS who dealt with the case.

What kind of client is this - someone you almost never see who then brings such a situation to your doorstep is not someone I'd lose sleep over, but I would second advice to contact the VDS before doing anything else

Re: neglect case?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:41:32 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Did you have permission to post mortem it?[/quote]

Wouldn't normally reply to an anon - so please identify yourself if you write again - but no, I didn't. Which is why it didn't have a PM. Read my post again.

Re: neglect case?

Elisabeth Knappett — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:40:55 GMT

Yes, report. It's obviously bugging you - rightly so - and the only way to feel settled about it, for me, would be to know that I've done everything I can to stop any other animals in her/their care being neglected in the same or similar ways. Ditto the check with VDS first - there may be 'safe' ways to report without worrying about confidentiality issues....

Re: neglect case?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:39:50 GMT

I will certainly be ringing the VDS tomorrow, but I just wondered if anyone has dealt with anything similar?

Re: neglect case?

An On MRCVS — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:35:27 GMT

Did you have permission to post mortem it?

Re: neglect case?

james herriot lied — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:34:26 GMT

Yes. Report it, Gillian. Whether you do it anonymously or be up-front, you know you need to look into this one. She knows she did poorly by the dog, and they have other animals. Had she been up front, it might have been a little different - and even very thin animals can sometimes be having a pain free, reasonable QOL. That she was cagey means that this wasn't the dog's experience at the end.

Do, do, do contact the VDS first, obviously.

Re: neglect case?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:31:29 GMT

It sounds like a welfare issue and I would follow my nose and involve the RSPCA if you feel unnecessary suffering has been caused, plus they have other pets and who can say what condition they are in?

You, your nurse or receptionist could report them anonymously as a lay person rather than a veterinary professional if confidentiality is an issue?

Are we duty bound to report such cases, as causing unnecessary suffering is a criminal offence?