Overstepping the bounds

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Andrew Wills — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:16:32 GMT

An On,

As a 'boss' myself, I am appalled by this. Your boss - or ex boss - needs to 'man up' (yes, I read the sexism discussion!) and get in touch with James Cronin, an employment law specialist, who will advise on hot to 'manage' the problem employee out the door. Of course, if he is shagging her (am I allowed to say that on here??) then that is a huge problem both for him if he is married or in some other 'committed relationship' but also for the team as a whole, and that is grossly unfair as it should only be his to deal with. Better yet, getting into that situation in the first place is idiotic but that's a whole other story.

Any team needs clear leadership, or it will break down. If he cannot see this, despite being hit over the head with you pointing out the glaringly obvious, then frankly he doesn't deserve to have a team of professionals working for him. Getting out sounds like the right choice if you have tried and failed to change the environment on several occasions. Good luck in your job hunting!

Just as an aside, I appreciate you cannot name names but letting us know the town or area you have been working in might serve as a warning to future prospective employees there!

Re: Overstepping the bounds

J G Wray — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:03:22 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Your boss needs to grow a pair of cojones and learn how to use them, as well as taking lessons in leadership. This receptions needs to learn her place, her limitations, and should be formally disciplined with a view to dismissal. Her behaviour in front of a client during a PTS consult is unforgivable.

The best way around the nonsense with the antibiotics is to always prescribe and dispense the full course. One could always say "here is a full 7 (or whatever it is) day course of Synulox, if you really can't give them, bring back for a refund and we'll give Convenia instead.

[/quote]

Wibble Sherlock

Given the gender demographic of the profession, nursing and reception staff, I'd be surprised if there were any more "heat" proportionately in all female practices than others. Furthermore, to take lessons from someone who has chosen not to be a leader, because leadership of a practice requires commitment to a practice, strains credulity.

Anon has given us a version here. It's probably true. If true then getting out is self-preservation. If Anon posted who they were and what practice this is then Menotrs here could offer advice to put practice back on right path eh?

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:18:30 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I (and colleagues) have also had to deal with regular tantrums when she is challenged, no matter how unconfrontationally - storming out of the building, slamming doors, following staff through the practice yelling at them, one one occasion screwing up a pts consent form and throwing it into the consult room in front of the upset owner - and constant hostility which got so bad I visited my GP several times because I was finding it difficult to go into work. When I tried to discuss it with my boss it was dismissed as a personality clash[/quote]

The weirdness of bosses has no limits, it seems.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I could not just "up sticks" over the last few years due to personal responsibilities keeping me in this area (now nolonger the case), and I think the overwhelming view of "get the hell outta there" has been the kick up the backside I needed. Thanks guys[/quote]

Good for you.

PS Yes, I was once in a practice where the receptionist/secretary was a law unto herself in an analogous way. She was the boss's mistress.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:50:30 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Oh come on Malcolm.[/quote]

Just stirring the pot!!

[/quote]

me too

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:01:38 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Oh come on Malcolm.[/quote]

Just stirring the pot!!

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:28:09 GMT

I'm not being sexist at all, merely an observation and an opinion that practices with female only staff seem to have more interpersonal problems, clashes, rifts and tiffs between members.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:24:31 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Blatant sexism here[/quote]

Oh come on Malcolm.

Clive is just making an observation about the difference between the sexes. Surely the world has not become so politically correct that he cannot do that without being labelled sexist. He wasn't actually expressing discriminatory or prejudicial thoughts (which is what I understand by the term sexism).

Eugenics on the other hand.

That's another thing altogether.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:10:04 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]The other thing that crossed my mind; is it an all female practice[/quote]

Blatant sexism here, eugenics advocated on another thread!! Welcome to the caring profession.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:37:46 GMT

I also thought about the possibility of a relationship going on?

The other thing that crossed my mind; is it an all female practice? I have noticed that there seem to be more conflicts, personality clashes, and rifts between staff in practices where there are no male staff members, just an observation.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:30:32 GMT

You are doing things right by documenting everything. Keep records and notes (separately from PMS) and keep a paper trail. It is not always that easy to change jobs and there are ways to 'cover your own backside'.

Some bosses are pretty feeble and others are so worried about repercussions of sacking someone. There may be other unknown complicating factors as well!!

(Just seen Dagmar's comment which is in line with my 'complicating factors'!)

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:20:21 GMT

Kate, I've just talked to my nurse about this thread and her initial reaction was : "They have a relationship!" :-)

Maybe the boss is just not able to handle conflicts though, I am guilty of it, too (although it wouldn't go nowhere near that), but I was wondering too why he would accept someone trying to minimise his income?

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Kate Richardson — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:15:06 GMT

What is also a bit bizarre is that in condoning this person's behaviour, the boss(es) are condoning loss of income to the practice- by dissuading a client from coming in for further antibiotic tablets or an injection. Seems very odd to me. And behaving in an irrational fashion in front of clients especially during a euthanasia....speechless.

Do you think they could be having a relationship???? Or does she have some sort of secret hold over him.......

Really wish you all the best and hope you find a better job soon.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:33:28 GMT

Sounds like a good decision. What many seem to overlook in these situations is that it is YOUR own MRCVS and livelihood that is at risk and not the bosses or that of your colleagues. One thing that you can be sure of is that if/when the sh*t hits the fan, they will all be covering their own backsides and they will not necessarily rely on the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The full account of the recent RCVS RVN disciplinary case makes interesting reading in this regard.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:51:23 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

My main worry now is over interfering in treatment, eg recently - a colleague saw a cat with cellulitis one Saturday, owner very unsure about tableting and no convenia in stock so the cat was given synulox injection and 2 syn tablets to give on Sunday. Owner told (and clearly in notes) to come in on Mon - either to collect a full syn course if she could give them, or bring the cat for convenia if not. Receptionist (not realizing anyone could hear) read notes, asked how the cat was, but then repeatedly tried to put words into the owners mouth "but if he's better he probably doesn't need any more antibiotics" (several times). When the owner stuck to her guns about collecting the tablets she tried "but he had an injection on Saturday". Owner asked how long the injection lasted - "5days" was the answer (syn rtu) despite admitting later that she hadn't any idea. Intelligent owner (by now quite annoyed) asked why she was given tablets then and was told "To boost the injection". At this point I intervened and sorted out the tablets. When challenged she tried to turn it into an issue about not knowing drug durations - rather than an issue about why she tried to fob off a client and make a clinical decision that 2 days antibiotics was enough, rather than simply asking a vet to authorise the tablets. My boss also latched onto the drug duration explanation as being an easy way to avoid doing anything. I strongly suspect things like this have happened before but when asked it is always allegedly the client who " said she didn't need to..."

[/quote]

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:46:22 GMT

I did get the view from the original post that this was a long-standing problem - afterall, no one is likely to post about a one-off situation that a quick chat with the boss would resolve. You also sounded very stressed about the situation, which, regardless of the cause, just isn't worth it!

I am glad that you're now in a position to leave. Run.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:32:01 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

PMS is password log-on but once logged in you can select any colleague's name from a drop-down menu and use that

[/quote]

The situation sounds horrendous, but on this point the PMS will record who was logged on as well as which name was selected from the drop-down menu. The details of who was logged on won't be visible on the clinical notes, but the software supplier can extract that information if necessary.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Louise6732 — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:37:08 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]one one occasion screwing up a pts consent form and throwing it into the consult room in front of the upset owner [/quote]

WHAT?!!!!! This is utterly inexcuseable! Personal responsibilities or not, if my boss tolerated and made excuses for this behaviour I would be out the door faster than my legs could carry me.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Rajat — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:38:57 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I could not just "up sticks" over the last few years due to personal responsibilities keeping me in this area (now nolonger the case), [/quote]

I can't even imagine how good you must feel to finally be able to leave this hell hole !!!

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Rob Loxley — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:15:14 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]When I tried to discuss it with my boss it was dismissed as a personality clash[/quote]

A boss who lets this go on as you describe isn't one you want and his support is unlikely to suddenly materialise if for instance some issue gets you hauled up by the College.
It sounds like the situation is affecting your sanity/health and my 2p is that it sounds like you won't change how this boss is, so that leaves you with changing your boss...

Re: Overstepping the bounds

An On MRCVS — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:06:12 GMT

Yes there have been other colleagues who had the same concerns, and we did try a joint approach on occasions (futilely) - but they have all left due to various stress related issues - it's a generally stressful workplace (who'd have guessed).

I realised from my original post that it sounds like a short time period - in fact these issues have occurred over years and it has been a war of attrition where I (and my predecessor and colleagues) have tried to tackle an issue at a time(there are other many many more minor problems but these weren't so relevant to the DC case). I think I have managed to stop the POM-V problems but it took a couple of years and finally a letter (I did work out the benefit of a paper trail) complete with pages listing examples before I was able to get 24hr notice and a more formal repeat presciption request system installed.

"2) Depends on the client, they would ask 99% of the time but for something ..............." - agreed (for sensible, responsible staff) but what about for example a hyperthyroid cat whose owner didn't come back at the end of the month as requested - instead they wandered in 5 months later and were simply sold another 60 felimazole by an unqualified receptionist with no attempt to ask a vet? Or the dog with CHF that was developing early renal insufficiency and belonged to a client with learning difficulties - vet requested check in 1month - owners sold 5 months of repeats without vet being consulted - dog presented OOH agonal gasping and uraemic as hell I could go on.....

"6) Depends on circumstances, maybe if no-one else is there to ask so long ................" - but there is almost always someone to ask - just that it doesn't happen. It's things like clients being told their pet is ready to collect and turning up when it still isn't round from the GA, or being told their pet is "going to be fine" when it's dying, or being told their pet has had different treatments/drugs to that given, plus incorrect advice generally on things that should be known and are written in the reception manual.

PMS is password log-on but once logged in you can select any colleague's name from a drop-down menu and use that

My main worry now is over interfering in treatment, eg recently - a colleague saw a cat with cellulitis one Saturday, owner very unsure about tableting and no convenia in stock so the cat was given synulox injection and 2 syn tablets to give on Sunday. Owner told (and clearly in notes) to come in on Mon - either to collect a full syn course if she could give them, or bring the cat for convenia if not. Receptionist (not realising anyone could hear) read notes, asked how the cat was, but then repeatedly tried to put words into the owners mouth "but if he's better he probably doesn't need any more antibiotics" (several times). When the owner stuck to her guns about collecting the tablets she tried "but he had an injection on Saturday". Owner asked how long the injection lasted - "5days" was the answer (syn rtu) despite admitting later that she hadn't any idea. Intelligent owner (by now quite annoyed) asked why she was given tablets then and was told "To boost the injection". At this point I intervened and sorted out the tablets. When challenged she tried to turn it into an issue about not knowing drug durations - rather than an issue about why she tried to fob off a client and make a clinical decision that 2 days antibiotics was enough, rather than simply asking a vet to authorise the tablets. My boss also latched onto the drug duration explanation as being an easy way to avoid doing anything. I strongly suspect things like this have happened before but when asked it is always allegedly the client who " said she didn't need to..."

I (and colleagues) have also had to deal with regular tantrums when she is challenged, no matter how unconfrontationally - storming out of the building, slamming doors, following staff through the practice yelling at them, one one occasion screwing up a pts consent form and throwing it into the consult room in front of the upset owner - and constant hostility which got so bad I visited my GP several times because I was finding it difficult to go into work. When I tried to discuss it with my boss it was dismissed as a personality clash

I could not just "up sticks" over the last few years due to personal responsibilities keeping me in this area (now nolonger the case), and I think the overwhelming view of "get the hell outta there" has been the kick up the backside I needed. Thanks guys

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Rob Loxley — Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:31:24 GMT

1,3 and 4 are illegal (contrary to the VMR and VSA); 2 is essentially the same as 1 or 3; 5 and 6 aren't acceptable given that they stray into areas covered by the VSA and if advice is incorrect then it'll be a vet in the firing line...

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:03:06 GMT

We have had two members of staff over the years that knew more than the vets in the practice. One was a qualified VN and spouted bullshit that made even our lowliest receptionist squirm.

One learned from practice members and remained a valuable member of staff for years and the other left after a few weeks (voluntarily rather than by dismissal).

I think these individuals genuinely believe what they are saying and are so over confident that they don't see any personal weaknesses. Make sure you cover your back (protect your log in details so nothing can be entered as you except what you put in.

If the practice owner(s) are unwilling to do anything then you may need to consider your position! It is not 'your business' but you do have an ethical responsibility to yourself, clients and your profession.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:13:28 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Anon - you already know this situation is unacceptable. Unfortunately it is not your practice so it is 'none of your business' (in the most literal sense) what this nurse is allowed to get away with.

[/quote]

It may be Anon's business, it depends how the repeat prescriptions are put through the PMS, if they're being recorded as authorised by Anon then that is something that they should be very concerned about.

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:45:07 GMT

Martin It seems to me that thisunqualified person is acting illegally That's enough to totally condemn them in my opinion

Wynne

Re: Overstepping the bounds

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:26:28 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Given the recent threads on the RVN DC case and staff ordering drugs for their own use, I wondered what other's take would be on an unqualified staff member,

1. "prescribing" POM-V flea or worm products, including in some cases products or strengths that the animal hadn't had before, without authorisation by a vet, and in some cases to animals that hadn't been seen for years

2. repeating prescriptions without asking a vet, sometimes in direct contradiction to the instructions about follow up checks in the clinical notes

3. supplying NFA-VPS products without being an SQP

4. "diagnosing"

5.. contradicting, disregarding or altering vets' treatment instructions eg about duration of treatment, need to see a case as an emergency, follow up checks

6. bullshitting to clients rather than asking another staff member for the correct information including about the condition of a pet, or treatment given

[/quote]

Depends on how 'unqualified' they are, I have experienced nursing auxiliaries I would trust on some of these issues, that said I would expect my staff to ask me or advise the client to come back later/tell them I'll call them, if I'm not there except for 3 which I would be totally happy about but to refine that::

1) Borderline, some staff I would trust other's not at all

2) Depends on the client, they would ask 99% of the time but for something that wasn't critical for monitoring I would allow them to dispense a few days supply until it was convenient for the client to come in

3) No problem, however 'unqualified they were, if I'm employing them they've got to have more training/common sense than a SQP!

4) Wouldn't be happy

5) Definitely no and internal disciplinary case

6) Depends on circumstances, maybe if no-one else is there to ask so long as it doesn't become 5 and they clearly indicated that this was an unqualified opinion that they would corroborate with me, but generally I would not be happy.