Rodent euthanasia

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:19:29 GMT

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]I put the small furry in a lunch box, put in some cotton wool, dribble some liquid iso onto cotton wool. They're unconcious in about 10 seconds, then i/c injection of pentobarb.[/quote]

Exactly what I do too.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Clive Ansell — Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:11:18 GMT

One of the practices I work in still has a large bottle of ether which is used for gassing down small rodents etc prior to euthanasia. works very well.

I with Gillian, I don't feel comfortable with conscious intra cardiac injections given the number of anatomical structures and the possibility of hitting/missing many of them.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:03:53 GMT

I find a number of them head across to where the iso comes into the chamber to sniff it. I have never seen signs of aversion so consider this a much better way than risk the pain of i/p pentobarb.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Suzanne Kelly — Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:53:46 GMT

I put the small furry in a lunch box, put in some cotton wool, dribble some liquid iso onto cotton wool. They're unconcious in about 10 seconds, then i/c injection of pentobarb.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:32:01 GMT

We use iso in the anaesthetic machine but have a bit of halothane left over so use that on a swab.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:52:18 GMT

I know it is irritant. The question, I suppose, is whether this irritation is sufficient to make mask induction more stressful and painful than other methods. I guess this comes down to judging each situation on its own merits. Isoflurane induction should only be done at 2-3% in rodents, which will help minimise the level of irritation.

I use sevo.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

bob lehner — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:36:33 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="bob lehner"]I believe Iso is very irritant and probably not at all nice to be gassed-down with.[/quote]

It is licensed for induction of anaesthesia by mask in these species. If it was excessively irritant this would be very unlikely.

[/quote]

Well, if you Google 'isoflurane irritant' you will find plenty of references that it is significantly more irritant than halothane or sevo and is generally not recommended for mask induction in humans.

The BSAVA Formulary states ; 'Isoflurane has a pungent smell and induction to anaesthesia using chambers or masks may be less well tolerated in small dogs and cats compared with halothane.'

I've seen small rodents look pretty stressed, rubbing at their eyes etc. when anaesthetised in a chamber with iso.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:25:35 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]I believe Iso is very irritant and probably not at all nice to be gassed-down with.[/quote]

It is licensed for induction of anaesthesia by mask in these species. If it was excessively irritant this would be very unlikely.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:18:29 GMT

Somebody in a different thread pointed out that with such a low consultation fee, they were not prepared to spend very long carrying out a euthanasia of a small animal.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:27:16 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] That and their low perceived value meaning that vets do not want to take any time over them.....[/quote]

Value as perceived by whom?

What do you mean by "value"?

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:04:08 GMT

I knew as soon as I posted that my point could be taken that way - I realise sometimes we do things with animals,for their own good, that the owner would be best not seeing.

Do you get what I mean though? I think that small beasties sometimes get a rough deal and are dealt with in a way that is convenient for the vet but not necessarily in the best interests of the animal- simply because their small size and tendency to freeze with stress makes these procedures possible. That and their low perceived value meaning that vets do not want to take any time over them.....

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:51:35 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I have also noticed that there is a difference in how small beasties are euthanased depending on whether an owner is present or not. I can understand that this has to be a consideration, but I think that if an owner would be upset by seeing your method of choice, feeling it somehow cruel or inhumane, is it really fair to use it behind their back? [/quote]

Yes.

Arguably the kindest way of euthanasia of rats or mice would be a swift bash on the head. Michael has already mentioned neck dislocation of myxy rabbits. But you wouldn't do that with an owner present because you consider the owner's feelings, and considering the owner's feelings is part of the task (cross reference there to some other recent threads). It's aesthetic more than ethical.

If you are wondering, no I don't bash rats or mice on the head.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:40:06 GMT

There isn't meant to be any insinuation of right and wrong. I am genuinely interested - mainly becuse there seems to be a vast difference in how small mammals are euthanased vs larger mammals. I do find that concerning, as they feel the same pain. (Or, I should say, I assume they do...I can't provide the evidence.)

I have also noticed that there is a difference in how small beasties are euthanased depending on whether an owner is present or not. I can understand that this has to be a consideration, but I think that if an owner would be upset by seeing your method of choice, feeling it somehow cruel or inhumane, is it really fair to use it behind their back? Afterall, cats and dogs are euthanased the same way, regardless of the presence or absence of the owner - no?

Re: Rodent euthanasia

jamie winstone — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:18:04 GMT

Most of the small rodents presented for euthanasia are in a terminal state of shock and really just need helping along the way. Of course there is not a correct way of doing this but i am getting the feeling there is more than a hint of what the experts do and everybody else`s lesser method.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

bob lehner — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 15:08:49 GMT

I believe Iso is very irritant and probably not at all nice to be gassed-down with. Sevo OK.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Louise6732 — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:55:38 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Logistically gassing small furries is pretty difficult in a packed evening surgery. The owners often want to stay so how do you do it? You can't leave them alone in the operating theatre whilst their mouse goes to sleep can you?[/quote]

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]i have to agree with Clive i personally think most small furries very terribly distressed being gassed, far less so with good handling and i/c injection, most dont even feel it- or so it seems if they are still. [/quote]

We have Sevo, so I don't think it's very stressful, I wouldn't fancy attempting an IC injection in a hamster for example, don't you get bitten? Do you often miss the heart and have to try again?

We have a modified tupperware box that we can attach a circuit to and gas things that way. It's a relatively big box, so for mice, hansters etc who are very small, I use an mask with a rubber seal with the animal inside and press the mask onto our rubber topped table, it makes a very tiny gas chamber and takes no time at all for them to go down with this!

Louise

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:20:59 GMT

I agree with the Andrew and Ciive.

Logistically gassing small furries is pretty difficult in a packed evening surgery. The owners often want to stay so how do you do it? You can't leave them alone in the operating theatre whilst their mouse goes to sleep can you?

There's the added pressure of finances too, all very nice if you were to charge as per a cat and dog for anaesthetic time and gas (about £1.50/minute + consultation + drugs) Can you do this for £10-£20?

I use S/C dom and torb when I can, pop them back in the cage and leave the client in a spare consult room (if there is one of course) then come back 10 minutes later and put 2ml euthatal in the liver - all very peaceful and unrushed.

Neil

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Anne Seawright — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:19:08 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]

i have to agree with Clive i personally think most small furries very terribly distressed being gassed, far less so with good handling and i/c injection, most dont even feel it- or so it seems if they are still.

[/quote] Not necessarily. They are prey species who freeze when threatened. As to which is less distressing, I am not sure but stress and pain are very difficult to recognise in these animals.

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Andrew Mellor — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:04:05 GMT

Re: Rodent euthanasia

Clive Ansell — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:34:19 GMT

Rodents and guinea pigs: Usually opt for the gaseous ga prior to i/c or I/p route. will sometimes do it conscious.

Rabbits; will try marginal ear vein usually, but if difficult or collapsed will opt for gaseous or I/m ga.

Domitor/ketamine I/m can sting, so is pre ga with these any less painful/distressing that a conscious I/p or I/c injection?

Is gaseous induction with Isoflurane any less painful/distressing than a I/p or I/c injection, given it is a respiratory irritant?