Staff buying drugs for own use

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Charlotte Marshall — Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:31:38 GMT

Regarding the point about having boxes of ibuprofen and paracetamol on the shelf: Regardless of whether the amount brings it into POM status the health and safety people and first aid people always say you cannot provide even these for other people ie members of staff as if they have a reaction you could be liable! I know it is over the top and you would expect people to know if they cannot take a particular drug but that is the advice given.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Sylvia Wilson — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:07:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Sylvia A doctor ????????????????????

Paid by the taxpayer and still wants to cheat another professional !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

[/quote]

Wynne, my comment in response to James's post wasn't about the particular doctor, who probably isn't short of the money to pay for medicines, but about his comment that he could not understand why people want to cut corners. Having been unable to work myself for the last couple of years because of health issues, I can absolutely empathise with Wren's comment above. I don't have to pay for prescriptions at the moment (one compensation for having cancer), but I would struggle to find the £30+/month to pay for my prescriptions

Sylvia

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:09:13 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]True, but it doesn't give doses for human generic drugs used in animals.[/quote]

No, but you would hope that between a pharmacist and a GP they could look at the licensed dose rates and extrapolate.

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]A client in one of my regular practices is a pharmacist and her husband a GP[/quote]

What really is the harm? The local pharmacy is very good to us when we need something from them in a hurry. If they want to source the medicine themselves that is up to them. Personally I'd be happy discussing dose. Hardly different to writing a prescription that may be cashed elsewhere (and a human pharmacist can cash a vet prescription, albeit not for a generic human drug).

I get more sense out the GP because he knows I am a vet. He was sourcing all the dressing materials for his horse's leg wound himself, I imagine via the NHS!

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:43:40 GMT

Neither you nor your husband are paid by the taxpayer This mean doctor is

Wynne

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Wren — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:41:17 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

It honestly still baffles me that in a country with a free medical system and dirt cheap prescriptions people still want to cut corners to save a couple of quid.

[/quote]

You have to have experienced not having the couple of quid to understand

[/quote]

I remember standing in our GP's reception in tears only a couple of years ago. My husband had a serious infection which had kept him off work for a couple of weeks. We can only just cover all our living expenses ordinarily and when he doesn't work he doesn't get paid. The doctor prescribed yet another batch of antibiotics (3 kinds), an anti-inflammatory and an opiate. With him out of work we just didn't have the money to pay for 5 items, in addition to the ten or twelve he'd already had in the preceding couple of weeks. Luckily the receptionist (our GP dispenses drugs) tore up the cheques I'd been writing her for the past couple of weeks and retrospectively gave us a 6 month pre-paid prescription form which she allowed us to pay for when my husband was back in work. I am still grateful for her kindness to this day.

Regular prescriptions can cost a LOT of money.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Clive Ansell — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:38:09 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

Sheesh. It's FREE to go to a doctor here, and the prescription fee you pay of £7.65 is a bargain compared to ANY first world country without an NHS.

[/quote]

A common misconception. The NHS is far from free, and in fact is incredibly expensive and poor value for money at around £100 billion, or £1700 per person, a year

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:28:30 GMT

Sylvia A doctor ????????????????????

Paid by the taxpayer and still wants to cheat another professional !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

James Laidlaw — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:17:20 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

It honestly still baffles me that in a country with a free medical system and dirt cheap prescriptions people still want to cut corners to save a couple of quid.

[/quote]

Not cheap, and certainly not free.

Often the actual cost of a drug is much lower than the prescription charge of £7.65.

[/quote]

Sheesh. It's FREE to go to a doctor here, and the prescription fee you pay of £7.65 is a bargain compared to ANY first world country without an NHS.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Sylvia Wilson — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:14:35 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

It honestly still baffles me that in a country with a free medical system and dirt cheap prescriptions people still want to cut corners to save a couple of quid.

[/quote]

You have to have experienced not having the couple of quid to understand

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Clive Ansell — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:08:11 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

It honestly still baffles me that in a country with a free medical system and dirt cheap prescriptions people still want to cut corners to save a couple of quid.

[/quote]

Not cheap, and certainly not free.

Often the actual cost of a drug is much lower than the prescription charge of £7.65.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Clive Ansell — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:04:07 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

The NOAH compendium is online for all to read.

[/quote]

True, but it doesn't give doses for human generic drugs used in animals.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

James Laidlaw — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:58:15 GMT

It honestly still baffles me that in a country with a free medical system and dirt cheap prescriptions people still want to cut corners to save a couple of quid.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:47:13 GMT

The NOAH compendium is online for all to read.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Clive Ansell — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:31:21 GMT

I would only ever report them if the welfare of the patient was being compromised, and there is no sign or evidence that it is. I don't know how they obtain the Enalapril and Frusemide although I can guess, but it has not been prescribed by a veterinary surgeon so not an RCVS issue.

As they using human generics against veterinary advice should we give them the correct dosage, or not if they ask? do we become complicit if we give related advice?

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:11:49 GMT

I'd say the GMC or the Pharmaceutical Society-but check 1st that RCVS will allow it

Wynne

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Clive Ansell — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:00:49 GMT

Members of the medical profession do similar.

A client in one of my regular practices is a pharmacist and her husband a GP, and they both work at the same rural practice with its own pharmacy. Her dog, an ageing CKCS with congestive heart failure is treated with human generic Enalapril and generic Frusemide which I guess they acquire off the shelf. I, and other colleagues have advised we cannot prescribe those under rules of the cascade, but the owner raises 2 fingers and point blank refuses as she can get "the same at 10% of the price". Should she be reported and to whom? there is no welfare issue, the dog is well looked after and attends the surgery for 6 monthly checks as advised.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:23:48 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]He probably thought the law was only for the guidence of wise men-until he found out differently-the hard way[/quote] I appreciate it is technically illegal, could lead to a disciplinary case, that a system has to be in place to prevent abuse and this is not an admission that I would ever condone self-prescribing but as Clive asked: can you honestly say that you never taken anything off your shelf for your own treatment? When the medical profession is guilty of writing prescriptions for all and sundry without too much consideration, whether we get the drug from Boots or NVS is really a rather minor consideration in reality. Common sense should apply but sadly it isn't all that common.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

bob lehner — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:27:25 GMT

From the MHRA (Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency) website:

'POM and P medicines can only be sold or supplied at registered pharmacy premises by or under the supervision of a pharmacist. POMs are subject to the additional requirement that they are sold or supplied in accordance with an appropriate practitioner's prescription. An "appropriate practitioner" is a doctor, dentist or, in certain circumstances, an independent nurse prescriber or a supplementary prescriber.'

We only have the right to prescribe or supply 'human' medicines for animals under the limitations of the Cascade.

We are allowed to prescribe/supply POM-V, POM-VPS, NFA-VPS and AVM-GSL medicines - which are licensed for use in animals - not humans.

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:03:31 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Micheal Bob Clive Martin

The VS suspended 6 to 8 years ago was buying a painkiller which had originally been prescribed for his wife by their GP The GP knew where he was sourcing it from DC still suspended himas it was against the law He probably thought the law was only for the guidence of wise men-until he found out differently-the hard way

Wynne

[/quote]

I'm aware of the case (wasn't as long ago as that). He didn't have a prescription from the doctor.

I did say:

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Obvious that we can't supply POMs for others but it's the rest I'd like clarification on.[/quote]

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:20:24 GMT

Micheal Bob Clive Martin

Wynne

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:09:55 GMT

Brilliant :)

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:06:04 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Be honest, who has NEVER done this?[/quote] Only those who are truly self-righteous and deserve a sainthood? Rules are for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. When I went on a VETAID trip to Africa with 20 odd other vets and vet nurses the doctor assigned to our party said if he'd known that he was going with a load of vets, and what pharmacy they brought with them, he wouldn't have bothered coming along, he treated more of the Masai than us!

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:50:48 GMT

As long as you have a prescription you can source it from wherever you want. But can you supply it to yourself on a GP prescription? Not sure about that. The supplier is supposed to check the prescription, not only if it is genuine, but also if it doesn't have obvious mistakes. As vets we probably are not supposed to be licensed to do that.Any GP or pharmacist relations on this forum?

Mariette

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Clive Ansell — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:54:10 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I still ask the question; who can honestly say they have NEVER done this? [/quote]

I suspect none of us.

Anyone know where we can find the actual legislation, to clear up the word of the law?

Interesting that a pharmacist with no vet training can cash a prescription from a vet. Why not the other way around?

Obvious that we can't supply POM's for others but it's the rest I'd like clarification on.

[/quote]

I'm not sure?

Is there any law that says we cannot prescribe against a GP private or NHS prescription, providing it is the correct drug and is labelled correctly??

If a GP writes me a private script for, lets say Ciprofloxacin, is there any law that prevents me sourcing it from a veterinary supplier, or from wherever I want?

Re: Staff buying drugs for own use

Bob Russell — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:53:40 GMT

What I decide to order is up to me and I will live with the consequences. My GP is also happy to let me supply own meds but as I am exempt from prescription charges I don't have to face the anguish of paying £7.65 for medication costing 50p!

This is a world away from a staff member ordering medication for him/her self!

We also have iboprofen and paracetamol in bulk packs which actually become POM but I ordered these. Not overly fussed what the RCVS say about it as they are stored appropriately.