Merry Christmas!

Re: Merry Christmas!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 10:01:07 GMT

My favourite memory was when a wise man tripped and put his foot through our Sunday school teachers rather nice velvet dressing gown

Wynne

Re: Merry Christmas!

james herriot lied — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 18:45:38 GMT

So, just got back in from the 5yo's Nativity play.

Of the three wise men, one wouldn't come on stage no matter how much coaxing; another spent the entire show with her fingers up her nose (buried to the wrist). The third's crown kept falling down over his head, so he used it as a kind of neck hula hoop. Half the angels in the front row kept bursting into tears and the sheep refused to leave the stage after their big song.

My own little darling decided that being in the back row of narrators was cramping his style, so kept creeping in front of the wise men and throwing gangsta poses. Reception to this depended on whether you were a wise man's parent.

Next year we should be out of the country.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 12:35:16 GMT

I didn't see it either! :p

Re: Merry Christmas!

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 12:19:17 GMT

[quote user="Jo Jones"]To return to the subject of christmas decorations, here's one for the Scrooges..[/quote]

Brilliant - and even funnier because I didn't "see" it the first time I looked.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Jo Cobbett — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 11:52:58 GMT

To return to the subject of christmas decorations, here's one for the Scrooges...

Re: Merry Christmas!

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:03:13 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I'd call you an agnostic because you're talking about balance of probabilities [/quote]

I'm not agnostic. An agnostic sits on the fence. Like Mr Dawkins, I place myself at 6 out of 7: "Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist." That tiny bit of doubt is because I accept the scientific certainty that nothing is absolutely certain, and I may be proven wrong (i.e. in the same statistical realm as the possibility that someone might prove homeopathy has a direct effect on the mammalian body).

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Atheists think death =full stop[/quote]

Absolutely not. I believe that we all live on through the effect we have on, or the way we inspire others.

In fact, I am hugely comforted, if that is the right word, by seeing the way in which people I have known and loved, such as my dad, continue to have a very profound influence on other people long after they have died.

In the absence of a nice puffy cloud to go and sit on (or in my case, more likely some burning coals) after my demise, I find it a good alternative to aspire to.

oo,er just seen this new thread, The great theologicalistic debate, where I guess I should have posted the above.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:13:35 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

At least he hasn't done like my children and grandchildren and opened all the windows at once.

How are you going to explain to him that after Christmas Day there are no more treats?

[/quote]

No, but he has watched me take chocolates out of the M&S stocking advent calendar that is hanging across the mantle piece and made the connection, luckily it's just (millimetres) out of his reach!

I'm hoping I'll tire him out so much on Christmas day he won't wake up early enough on Boxing day! I've only brought one present so far this year - his (though it was a giant stuffed toy I got from work whilst on call this weekend).

Re: Merry Christmas!

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:02:40 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I think my creed is more cheerful because I believe that if I behave when I snuff it I'll go to heavenWynne

[/quote]

If you believe then you have everlasting life, your behaviour follows from your belief, but you are saved by your faith not by your actions. And Happy Christmas!

Re: Merry Christmas!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:21:59 GMT

I've 5 starred Arlo's latest post because it says what I was going to say so I don't have to repeat it. But would add that I am probably happier that anyone who believes in an after-life because I know when I die I just cease to exist, I don't feel there is any need to be concerned about that and I don't have to worry that I may go downstairs rather than up! Furthermore I have no need for a belief during my life, I don't need anything to explain the unexplained but I fear that those who believe in a higher being need it as a crutch because they are not whole enough people to live on their own two feet without having something to allay their fears real or imaginary. Furthermore I don't judge those who don't agree with me.

To all have a very merry Christmas and enjoy if as you feel fit whatever your belief.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:03:25 GMT

I'd call you an agnostic because you're talking about balance of probabilities

I would say a committed atheist was absolutely 100% committed to the belief that God doesn't exist

I think my creed is more cheerful because I believe that if I behave when I snuff it I'll go to heaven-admittedly I've had arguments with the Vicar because I believe all animals automatically go to heaven but since humans have a knowledge of good and evil then we will be judged and only good people will be admitted-he thinks heaven is only for humans

Atheists think death =full stop

Wynne

Re: Merry Christmas!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:57:06 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

The dog has learnt that every morning he gets a treat from his advent calendar (which was bought for him by my girlfriend's Mum, who loves Christmas). So now every morning, just before the alarm goes off, he barges into the bedroom and starts pawing my face and making all sorts of noises until we get up and open it for him.

If this continues for the next 20 days I'm going to turn into the Grinch.

[/quote]

At least he hasn't done like my children and grandchildren and opened all the windows at once.

How are you going to explain to him that after Christmas Day there are no more treats?

Re: Merry Christmas!

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:52:11 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

My point is agnostics are saying "no proof either way " which is an eminently sensible scientific approach

Committed atheists are saying "I can't prove God doesn't exist but I believe it anyway " which is every bit as illogical as "I can't prove God exists but I believe it anyway"

My creed is however much more optimistic than that of the atheists-but theirs is just as much an unproven creed

Wynne

[/quote]

Hi Wynne,

That's not what atheists say!

I subscribe to Dawkins' definition which is: 'on the balance of probabilities, God does not exist':

Dawkins' central argument against religion is probabilistic, and his scale of belief reflects this, ranging from 1: 'Strong theist. 100% probability of God' to the equivalent 7: 'Strong atheist'. He doesn't see 7 as a well-populated category, placing himself as 6: 'Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist'.
http://www.investigatingatheism.info/definition.html

In other words, I am not trying to prove anything. I just believe that on the balance of probabilities, based on what I know and what I have experienced, God does not exist. That is very different to saying: 'I believe it [God doesn't exist] anyway', i.e. for no reason, which is what you seem to be saying about atheists.

I don't think it is fair to say that your creed is more optimistic than mine. I am a hugely optimistic atheist. Furthermore, I would argue that my optimism is based on the more solid foundation of known facts which belief is unable to provide.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:51:52 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

What a stir my facetious little dig at committed atheists has caused.

[/quote]

Erm, no. I don't think so.

What we're in danger of sliding into is a hijack about the existence of God, which is why another thread is warranted. Nobody on here is the least bit perturbed by your 'dig', Evelyn; but I'd point out that it's actually the rest of us who are happy for the religious to join in with our pre-existing solstice celebrations - and if they wish to rename the festival and claim it as their own, then bless 'em all. It is awfully sweet that you'd look at 'Christmas' in terms of ownership rather than in taking a belated place at the table.

[/quote]

Such a monumental missing of the point, I've forgotten what my point was, assuming I ever had one. Anyway, Christmas is (self-evidently) a Christian festival, the winter solstice is either a non-religious one or a pagan one depending on your opinion.

I know what i like about Christmas/the winter solstice festival and I know what I dislike about it; and I suspect we have much in common there.

Whether you believe a word of it or not, you've got to admit that God sending the saviour of mankind in the form of a newborn baby makes a great story.

By the way, back to the original thread: I heard a wireless talk by an expert with a theory that makes a lot of sense, about that "no room at the inn" business. Anyone interested?

Re: Merry Christmas!

james herriot lied — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:32:35 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

What a stir my facetious little dig at committed atheists has caused.

[/quote]

Erm, no. I don't think so.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:18:38 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I think an atheist should worry a great deal about why they are are celebrating Christ-mas.

[/quote]

Christmas is the name that Christians put on it when they hijacked it: think Everest/Chomolungma, Ayer's Rock/Uluru etc etc. The fact that the religious renamed it doesn't alter the fundamental point: to rage against the dying of the light and chase all the bad spirits out. Ooh, and look - an ickle baby in a manger and - gods help me - the annual spectacle of ninety pre-juniors all forgetting their lines at once and butchering 'Little Donkey'. Make it stop, for pity's sake.

[/quote]

What a stir my facetious little dig at committed atheists has caused. Perhaps some of you should have read it a little more carefully and thoughtfully.

Call it a hijack if you like, by all means, it's no secret and nothing sinister that when Christians decided to celebrate an official birthday for Christ they picked a day that was already a popular festival of origins lost in prehistory. Most Christians, as far as I know, are very happy for anybody and everybody to celebrate Christmas, and join in the religious celebrations too if they wish. And I think, though I'm not sure, many religions are very happy with their popular festivals and ceremonies being participated in by non-believers.

However. Anyone who is not touched just a little by a newborn baby is scarcely human.

Re: Merry Christmas!

james herriot lied — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:12:08 GMT

This needs its own thread, I think.

In the meantime, Happy Christmas / hanukkah / Diwali (just gone) / Yule and, above all, Saturnalia to all.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:04:15 GMT

My point is agnostics are saying "no proof either way " which is an eminently sensible scientific approach

Committed atheists are saying "I can't prove God doesn't exist but I believe it anyway " which is every bit as illogical as "I can't prove God exists but I believe it anyway"

My creed is however much more optimistic than that of the atheists-but theirs is just as much an unproven creed

Wynne

Re: Merry Christmas!

james herriot lied — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:56:19 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

When people describe themselves as committed atheists it seems to me to be every bit as much a definite statement of (non) belief as people who are religious are making a statement of belief My argument is that in the same way it's impossible to prove God exists it's also impossible to scientifically prove He doesn't exist-so committed atheists are every bit as illogical as committed Christians-and a lot more depressive

Wynne

[/quote]

Ah, the God-shaped hole. as we always say to the eldest - just because you don't believe in santa, doesn't mean he doesn't believe in you.

I am firmly committed to the notion that homeopathy has no basis. The fact that there is no proof that it works does not lend itself to the interpretation that if one can't prove that it doesn't work, then it must, in fact, work.

Re: Merry Christmas!

james herriot lied — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:52:12 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I think an atheist should worry a great deal about why they are are celebrating Christ-mas.

[/quote]

Re: Merry Christmas!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 11:56:09 GMT

I can never understand anyone saying that they're commited atheists

I believe in God I fully appreciate that I have no proof God exists but faith means believing without proof

I can fully understand people who say they're agnostics because what they're saying is they're not prepared tobelieve in God without proof,which after all is the logical approach

Wynne

Re: Merry Christmas!

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 10:53:46 GMT

If this continues for the next 20 days I'm going to turn into the Grinch.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 10:08:28 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]When anybody who's prepared to make some effort knows that Christmas starts in mid-November. [/quote] Christmas begins in the summer sales when Mrs A starts hoarding nick-nacks for stocking fillers and rises to an an orgy of retail therapy buying unnecessary and excessive amounts of stuff that will be largely unappreciated and wasted in November and December and ends when I've paid off the credit card bill - about the same time the next year actually! And all I'll get is a pair of slippers - Bah humbug.

PS Whilst trying not to rise to Evelyns's bait, I would agree with Gillian that Christmas is a pagan festival that was hijacked by Christianity and therefore we all have a right to enjoy it without made to feel guilty because we don't celebrate the birth of someone who if he ever did exist was not the son of some higher power that certainly doesn't exist. Damn, I did rise to it after all!

Re: Merry Christmas!

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 08:02:25 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]Why's that Evelyn? Like the majority of people in the UK, I enjoy the family gatherings, parties, excited children...as an atheist that's all it means to me...and it doesn't worry me in the slightest :-/

[/quote]

Wow, an atheist but you celebrate a religious festival? [/quote]

I don't think that is quite what Chris said. I'm a (committed) atheist. I enjoy family gatherings, parties and excited children. There happen to be more of these things than normal in December. I'm happy to go along with that without it meaning anything more.

Re: Merry Christmas!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Dec 2012 00:43:02 GMT

[/quote]

Wow, an atheist but you celebrate a religious festival?

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]I enjoy the family gatherings, parties, excited children..[/quote] No, you wouldn't wish to miss that, for your atheist principles, would you? I suspect you are not such a dedicated atheist. Careful, you may find yourself arrested and sent to a re-education camp.

Many people in the UK – yes, quite possibly the majority – do indeed want to enjoy their own favourites among the various aspects of this ancient midwinter festival, whether it be the family gatherings, the parties, the excited children, the presents, the decorations, the frenzied lunatic purchasing spree, the getting off their tiny heads and puking in the street at 2 in the morning, and so on – without caring whether it's called Christmas or not; in fact the vast majority of them, I suspect, are not atheists but dunno-couldn't-care-less-anyway-ists.

A few years ago I was walking down Bangor High Street around 11.30p.m. on Christmas Eve on my way to midnight mass. Coming the other way (so, heading towards Maesgeirchen housing estate), a young er, woman, miniskirted, walking rapidly, in tears, wailing "Me Dad's gonna kill me! We were supposed to be in by ten!" Some hundred yards behind her was a young male, staggering along, shouting" 'S awri'! C'mon Kayley 's awri'! 'S New Yearsh Eve! Ev'bo'y shtay out late New Yearsh Eve!!"

Re: Merry Christmas!

Chris Geddes — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 21:44:28 GMT

Why's that Evelyn? Like the majority of people in the UK, I enjoy the family gatherings, parties, excited children...as an atheist that's all it means to me...and it doesn't worry me in the slightest :-/