Absence of ovariectomy

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Jo Cobbett — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:26:05 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

The real secret to a bitch spay is to make a big enough hole to get the ovary out properly, including having carefully stretched then broken the ovarian ligament

[/quote]

Surely the secret is to make the hole cranial enough to get the ovaries out. It doesn't really matter how far it stretches caudally as the rest of the uterus is usually pretty willing to come out. The hole can be small as long as it is well positioned.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

J G Wray — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:02:02 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I want to be able to see everything well, so tend to make a longer incision than some of my colleagues. ...

Ultimately as in all things , do what you feel comfortable with. And don't take things for granted.....!

[/quote]

Got to agree here. Speyed a mature bitch the other day, because she was 7 yo and had developed a malaise, a mild neutrophilia and had a few liver enzymes circulating. Mind you the mammary masses were also part of the equation and when the chest rads were clear I decided I probably ought to visually inspect and palpate her liver....Her uterus was enlarged of course. No prophylaxis advertised to the owner in respect of the spey and the mammary tumours, just viz future uterus stuff.

Went through a phase early on of making small incisions. I've no idea what I didn't see back then.

On another matter, I recall Spike Milligan on the subject of his obituary in the Evening Standard c2002

"..

At last a journalistic enterprise, the ultimate ego trip. Write your own obituary! Well, I've actually seen mine, by seducing an office girl from the Brisbane Courier Mail. It went like this: Spike Milligan was born Terence Alan Milligan on the 1 April 1918 in a hospital in Ahmednagar, India. When he grew up he wrote the Goon Show and died.

Well, I was educated first at the Convent of Jesus and Mary where I consistently passed top of the class. While I was there the nuns had 16 immaculate conceptions.

To Rangoon (the Rangoon Show folks) and the Brothers de Salle - despite the earthquake of 1929, I passed all exams with honours, especially English lit. I then wrote the Goon Show and died..."

It amused me

JGW

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Simon Neuhoff — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:55:59 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

no-one is under obligation to understand the doctrine, but if they don't they shouldn't attempt cracks about it.

I'll do my best to explain, but you must understand that it's not necessarily my own doctrine.

Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus. The baby was placed in her uterus by God.

Many people have heard the phrase "immaculate conception" (snigger snigger) and assume it refers to Jesus getting conceived. It does not.

The Immaculate Conception means Mary herself was conceived without Original Sin. That's to say, her mother and father copulated in the usual way but when the child was conceived no Original Sin was passed, which is what otherwise always happens. Original Sin is something pretty hard to grasp, but as I understand it begins with the original sin of Adam and Eve then being passed to the next generation with every conception.

[/quote]

Thanks Evelyn that clears up my misunderstanding - I have always thought the Immaculate Conception referred to Jesus' conception. I am pretty ignorant as far as religious doctrines go.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:42:24 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Somehow I didn't think that you would be so indoctrinated that you would take such offence Evelyn. But I'm struggling to understand how you yourself can differentiate between an immaculate conception and virgin birth. I'm an atheist so I'll be difficult to convince but please relieve me of my ignorance.

[/quote]

Ah, I am a freethinker, you are a bit biased, he is indoctrinated.................

As I pointed out in my simple way, the offensive thing about cracks that mix up the Immaculate Conception with the virgin birth is that it reveals the appalling ignorance of the cracker.

Mary was conceived without original sin. That's the Immaculate Conception. As an atheist, to you that may be all nonsense but that's what it is.

Mary was a virgin when gestating Jesus and when he was born. As an atheist, etc.....

These are two different matters.

This sort of stuff is good to know if you wish to avoid revealing your ignorance, also if you have (like me) an interest in all and any religions, also if you have (like me) an interest in some of the finest art produced by man.

By the way, don't anybody jump to conclusions. Have I said that I adhere to any religion? Apart from making it plain in the past that my religion is not evangelical atheism, I think not.

[/quote]

Sorry Evelyn I STILL don't understand what you are saying - I may well be ignorant but I don't knock anyone's religious beliefs. Please can you explain the difference to me - as Christians understand it? My upbringing was not religious and these concepts are not familiar to me. Not having a go - genuinely curious.

[/quote]

We seem to have two parallel strands to this thread! Well, now it's started.............. but this is my last post on this question.

My objection to the joke that started all this was not that a joke was made involving religious doctrine (the Mary bit made me chuckle) but that the joker had got the doctrine all wrong. Well, no-one is under obligation to understand the doctrine, but if they don't they shouldn't attempt cracks about it.

I'll do my best to explain, but you must understand that it's not necessarily my own doctrine.

Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus. The baby was placed in her uterus by God.

Many people have heard the phrase "immaculate conception" (snigger snigger) and assume it refers to Jesus getting conceived. It does not.

This probably sounds absolutely weird and ridiculous to anyone who is not interested in religion, or indeed if you are interested.

I apologise to any Christians, especially Roman Catholics, if I've got this a bit wrong, but that's my understanding.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Simon Neuhoff — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:36:34 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

Regarding cats, I would agree that they are usually easier but of late i have had 2 in a row that were a complete nightmare to find anything, followed by a couple of friable in-heat cervixes that cheesewired and disappeared behind the bladder before filling the abdomen with blood...confidence took a hit alright, this after doing spays for 20 years...

Ultimately spays should never be seen as a trivial or routine op - too much can go wrong and something is always waiting to squirt arterial blood in your eye if you get casual

[/quote]

This. I am very comfortable with bitch spays but have adopted a very thorough and steady approach - I am quick enough but I don't race through them! I always like to get two clamps on below the ovary, doubly ligate, get good exposure and never have any issues - until yesterday when the damn ovary tore straight off the uterus with minimal force applied - before I had got any where near the damn thing with a clamp. Located and ligated and checked very thoroughly to make sure I had the whole ovary - but a propery humbling experience.

Not sure if it is relevant but the bitch had had three liters. There were multiple fine walled cysts on the external surface of the left uterine horn (the one that didn't tear) and also multiple adhesions between the uterus and omentum and omentum and body wall. According to the owner she had never been caesared.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Kate Richardson — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:35:20 GMT

Those friable in season cervixes are one of the reasons I really prefer midline cat speys to flank. I'm glad its not just me who has had trouble with them.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Simon Neuhoff — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:28:58 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

Ah, I am a freethinker, you are a bit biased, he is indoctrinated.................

As I pointed out in my simple way, the offensive thing about cracks that mix up the Immaculate Conception with the virgin birth is that it reveals the appalling ignorance of the cracker.

Mary was conceived without original sin. That's the Immaculate Conception. As an atheist, to you that may be all nonsense but that's what it is.

Mary was a virgin when gestating Jesus and when he was born. As an atheist, etc.....

These are two different matters.

By the way, don't anybody jump to conclusions. Have I said that I adhere to any religion? Apart from making it plain in the past that my religion is not evangelical atheism, I think not.

[/quote]

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:24:11 GMT

I also now don't obsess about getting all of the cervix out, yanking away at the bladder neck, especially in dogs, is asking for trouble in my opinion, and i also worry about inadvertently including ureters in ligatures. I now leave a good margin. So long as these animals have no ovaries and you don't use progestagens then no problem. as discussed in the OVE thread.

the only stump pyos i have seen related to infections associated with transfixing ligatures through the cervival stump.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:39:40 GMT

Regarding cats, with those friable in-heat cervixes, I apply the ligature first before clamping, as it usually shears as you clamp.

Had a simple flank cat spay recently though where everything seemed to go fine, but post-op she started losing blood from the vulva. I had to open her up again midline, found the cervical stump - ligature hadn't slipped but for some reason was still bleeding, so religated and everything was fine.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:32:44 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I want to be able to see everything well, so tend to make a longer incision than some of my colleagues. Different strokes etc. The tip that made things click for me was making sure to break the ovarian ligament properly, which can be stressful time especially in an older dog.

Ultimately as in all things , do what you feel comfortable with. And don't take things for granted.....!

[/quote]

Defintely. Once I had got the hang of breaking down the ovarian ligament, the ovary then becomes a lot more mobile and it's much easier to get a secure ligature on it. I also recommend the 4m vicryl for ligating bigger spays. It's great, you can pull it as tight as you like and it won't snap unlike catgut.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 08:47:13 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

Regarding cats, I would agree that they are usually easier but of late i have had 2 in a row that were a complete nightmare to find anything, followed by a couple of friable in-heat cervixes

[/quote]

After doing that twice, I've gone right off doing the cervix; I take the ovary and a nice chunk of horn, but the cervix stays unless there really is plenty of space for it to come out. (Sure, it's easier and quicker to loop around below the cervix, one loop - it takes longer when you're hunting for that bleeding nasty stump! (prepares the kevlar umbrella!)

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 00:02:45 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I may have had a dig at religious doctrine to get a cheap laugh[/quote]

Didn't bother me in the least and I don't suppose it would bother many Christians either. I don't call you ignorant for your beliefs either. I did make it clear twice what I find offensive about that particular category of feeble joke.

Read my posts.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 23:12:35 GMT

Ultimately as in all things , do what you feel comfortable with. And don't take things for granted.....!

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 22:13:24 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]Break the ligament, get the ovary up and out properly and you will find things get a lot easier.[/quote]

I agree with you completely on that point. I do still find that deep bitches still don't give you a lot of room to play with.

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]The real secret to a bitch spay is to make a big enough hole to get the ovary out properly[/quote]

Now seriously the more bitches I have spayed the smaller holes I make the less extraneous stuff I have to deal with. The fat and intestine stays put. I am a fan of using the smallest hole possible, and yet still do a good job.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:53:49 GMT

Ultimately spays should never be seen as a trivial or routine op - too much can go wrong and something is always waiting to squirt arterial blood in your eye if you get casual

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:46:13 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I can see how it could be done in a bitch. Unless you are all so much better than me sometimes it it a struggle to get the exposure to get the clamps under the ovary, especially something like a deep chested fat lab. That said in any of these cases I go and examine the ovary and make sure it is intact.

TBH cats spays are easy and I cannot see how for one second you can fail to remove an ovary. It's one of the first jobs designated to a student. That is very much less forgiveable, in my eyes.

[/quote]

The real secret to a bitch spay is to make a big enough hole to get the ovary out properly, including having carefully stretched then broken the ovarian ligament. If you do not do this, you will not be able to clamp far enough below the ovary to be sure you have all of it, and in addition you won't have enough room to tie off properly. The commonest cause of slipped ovarian ligatures is getting a tuft of extraneous fat or other tissue between the pedicle and the ligature - as the stump slips back into the abdomen the ligature slips off and your spay gets immediately very sweaty.

Personally I rarely ligate the ovarian stump, so long as I am happy I have a good ligature laid, perhaps 2 or three in a larger fatty, but in a 6 month old I can be very confident that it is a good one., and if I'm not confident then I do it again. I also tend to leave longish ends on the ligature so it is easier to retrieve if i need reassurance

Break the ligament, get the ovary up and out properly and you will find things get a lot easier.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

James Laidlaw — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:31:22 GMT

Evelyn, surely you could have chosen better wording than the following... "As I pointed out in my simple way, the offensive thing about cracks that mix up the Immaculate Conception with the virgin birth is that it reveals the appalling ignorance of the cracker. " My mind is and always will be in the gutter. Apologies where required

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:14:19 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Ah, I am a freethinker, you are a bit biased, he is indoctrinated.........[/quote] My best friend is an evangelical Christian, I am an atheist we agree to disagree and carry on with our lives and share our common interests. As Robespierre said: I disagree with what you are saying but I would defend to my death your right to say it. I don't call you ignorant for your beliefs so perhaps you may reciprocate in kind. I may have had a dig at religious doctrine to get a cheap laugh but you can hardly say that Christians are a disadvantaged minority so its not exactly in the same league as racial prejudice. Give a cheap joke back at atheism and I won't give a hoot. There is the difference between us.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:39:01 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

Ah, I am a freethinker, you are a bit biased, he is indoctrinated.................

As I pointed out in my simple way, the offensive thing about cracks that mix up the Immaculate Conception with the virgin birth is that it reveals the appalling ignorance of the cracker.

Mary was conceived without original sin. That's the Immaculate Conception. As an atheist, to you that may be all nonsense but that's what it is.

Mary was a virgin when gestating Jesus and when he was born. As an atheist, etc.....

These are two different matters.

By the way, don't anybody jump to conclusions. Have I said that I adhere to any religion? Apart from making it plain in the past that my religion is not evangelical atheism, I think not.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 17:14:46 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

The Catholic Church holds that Mary was conceived in the natural way, but was free from original sin, this is the immaculate conception, the biblical evidence for this is somewhat limited. The virgin birth refers to Mary's conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit, on which subject the bible is very clear.

[/quote]I'm so glad you cleared it up for me, so much more logical.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

bob lehner — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:48:05 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Anaesthetized, shaved; the other vet had closed skin with silk - rarely a good sign. Opened up, went through a stitched muscle layer (I don't remember if he hit the linea alba or not), prepared for the usual ovary hunt...

...only to find a perfectly intact uterus and ovaries, everything bog standard in the right place, except for the fact that it wasn't supposed to be there! Cat made an uneventful recovery; I don't know what happened to the other vet! :)

[/quote]

A good number of years ago a SA vet (not that that is relevant) practicing in Herts was actually struck off for making a habit of 'spaying' cats - skin incision and skin sutures placed - but nothing else...! Pretty stupid really, as inevitably going to be found out as nature took its course.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:33:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:07:22 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]We had the immaculate conception this week (well its only a month away from Christmas) pregnant charitable cat spay - definitely never been out and no entire tom in the house. Amazing. We nicknamed it Mary.[/quote]

How appropriate.

The offensive thing about "immaculate conception" jokes is not the mild feeble humour about the virgin birth – I imagine Christians are pretty used to it and indeed why not make the odd joke – it's the distressing evidence of ignorance in people who confuse the Immaculate Conception of Mary with the virgin birth.

[/quote] Somehow I didn't think that you would be so indoctrinated that you would take such offence Evelyn. But I'm struggling to understand how you yourself can differentiate between an immaculate conception and virgin birth. I'm an atheist so I'll be difficult to convince but please relieve me of my ignorance.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 13:39:39 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I have to say I never have a problem getting an ovary up and out with 3 clamps cranial to it and 2 ligatures in any bitch spay. Doesn't everyone break the ovarian ligament to facilitate ease of access?

[/quote]

Yep, I agree.

Re: Absence of ovariectomy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:55:44 GMT

How appropriate.