Safety and OOH visits

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Claire Godfrey — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 11:01:36 GMT

We have night staff who are present overnight and answer the phones and look after the in patients. If clients arrive before the vet they are allowed to ask them to wait in the foyer until the vet is there. Of course people do sometimes turn up with out ringing first!

We do have a panic alarm and cctv. Annoyingly the car park has been used at night by people leaving cars and picking them up in the early hours in the past!

For OOH visits we now ring the boss! They will arrange someone to go with you and possibly cover because there is only one vet on call.

In the past I have been to clients I have known. We do normally manage to get people to visit the surgery. To be honest my sense of direction leaves me more stressed! Hate looking for addresses in the dark.

And when used to do farm call calls did find it extremely spooky, especially as none of them seemed to advertise their addresses.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:55:42 GMT

You're all making me think I should worry more! To be fair there was only one visit I went on where I felt truly uncomfortable and I have nearly always gone by myself out of hours. It was a pts - practically the only thing I visit for OOH and I have not done one for ages. It was two young men and the floor was covered with beer cans. if it hadn't been for the fact they were both in tears and the dog obviously did need pts i may well have turned straight around. however I had one eye on the door the whole time!

For some reason I do feel happier seeing animals at the surgery despite the fact I am still by myself and we don't have CCTV though there is a panic alarm ( not sure if it goes though to the police I think it may just set off the burglar alarm).

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:51:08 GMT

That's an excellent idea-another that's just occurred to me is to suggest meeting them somewhere public-like the foyer (or just outside the door of ) a 24 hour service station/supermarket-or even the car park of the local main police station

Wynne

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Mark Holmes — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 15:01:15 GMT

Seriously I would advise calling the local police if you need to leave details. They were absolutely super on the occasions I have had to. On one occasion I went in with them on an open line. I advised them things looked ok when I was in and they called back 15 minutes later. I am also hopeful that if the address was sufficiently dodgy they would advise me of it and suggest waiting for an escort.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:55:21 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Mark I don't know about your local cemetry-looking at the ages on the gravestones in mine-the vast majority are sufficiently elderly for one to assume they died in their beds from natural causes

Wynne

[/quote]

Wynne, I love wandering about churchyards, and in North Wales there are so very many heart-rending infants' and childrens' graves, and those of young women and men in their twenties

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Utlendigur — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:53:30 GMT

[quote user="Jo Jones"]

I will leave an address and an estimated time of return with my other half, but as he's usually fast asleep when I get back I'm not sure he'd be much use if I didn't come home! On the occasions when he is abroad for work I have rung my mum (who lives about 5 miles away) and given her the same information, then sent her a text when I got back.

[/quote]

As someone who lives alone, I always felt extremely vulnerable on call. Surely (IMHO) it should be up to the practice to provide an adequate OOH system, not family and friends of the employee. Ok, if you live with someone, it's easy enough to leave a note/say where you're going, but how can it be acceptable for a business to effectively use a (sometimes elderly) parent as an unpaid minder/buddy system particularly in the middle of the night. I had to pretend to my mother that we never did home visits otherwise she would have gone into a meltdown of anxiety - no way would I have rung her at 3am to say I was going to some block of flats on a dodgy housing estate, oh and I'd phone her again at 4am...This is the responsibility of the employer

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Jo Cobbett — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:11:52 GMT

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 10:37:31 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I was offered a lap dance as payment for a cat spay. Shame I didn't agree!

[/quote]

My girlfriend is a mixed vet, so far this year she has received about £30-40 in tips, a 25kg sack of potatoes and multiple meals pre-caesarians from farmers!

I'm not jealous at all. harumph.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:50:14 GMT

Mark I don't know about your local cemetry-looking at the ages on the gravestones in mine-the vast majority are sufficiently elderly for one to assume they died in their beds from natural causes

Wynne

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:46:15 GMT

Well said Malcolm-and RCVS

I just wonder whether this debate was started by the "stop all OOH and visit " brigade The safety of the veterinary surgeon is of paramount importance-but the welfare of the animal comes a close second-and I don't think we need further relaxation of the rules

Wynne

(ducking for cover )

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:08:31 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

From the new Code of Professional Conduct :

3.13 Clients may request attendance on a sick or injured animal away from the practice premises and, in some circumstances, it may be desirable to do so. On rare occasions, it may be necessary on clinical or welfare grounds. The decision to attend away from the practice is for the veterinary surgeon, having carefully balanced the needs of the animal against the safety implications of making the visit; a veterinary surgeon is not expected to risk 'life or limb', or that of anyone else to provide the service.

[/quote]

There you go again Bob, spoiling a nicely heating debate by introducing facts!

Credit where credit is due. I, for one, think that this bit of the Code is extremely well worded and profoundly sensible.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Mark Holmes — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:30:13 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]The current situation of the RCVS forcing vets to do OOH visits is untenable and I don't think it should wait until a tragedy happens before it is challenged.[/quote]

From the new Code of Professional Conduct :

[/quote] It does kind of assume that death and disablement is easy to predict and thus avoid which if they could speak many of the bodies in the local cemetery would dispute.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

bob lehner — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:48:06 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]The current situation of the RCVS forcing vets to do OOH visits is untenable and I don't think it should wait until a tragedy happens before it is challenged.[/quote]

From the new Code of Professional Conduct :

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Anthony Todd — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 15:35:04 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The RCVS can go and do various anatomically challenging things to themselve[/quote]

Nothing to do with the topic but oh, what a loverly turn of phrase!

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 15:23:19 GMT

I'm begining to think I've been very fortunate-or have only practised in law abiding areas

Wynne

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 15:23:13 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] Since then I have set up the telephones so that you can call 999 with a single push of a button. The control room can then hear everything even if you are unable to speak to them, and they can trace the call.[/quote] We have an alarm system with a panic button behind the desk, the control centre call the police immediately. There's one for fire as well.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Cat Henstridge — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:55:18 GMT

I am fortunate in that I have never felt threatened on a house visit, in or out of hours, but I would always take a nurse with me (normally there's not a lot you can do without one).

The people I would be most concerned about are the nurses staying alone in practices after hours, often they are some of the youngest members of the practice and would be very vulnerable should anyone try to get in or threaten them. When I did on call I normally lived further away that the clients and they generally got there before me, so the nurse was letting them into the building on her own. Again, we never had a problem and obviously the vast majority of people are nice but, as has already been said, it will only take one tragedy.

Does anyone else remember the story a few years ago about the young female vet who refused to visit a Rottie with a drunk owner OOH in a dodgy area and was subsequently hauled up by the RCVS? I was furious with their approach to the problem, being about the same age at the time and could have potentially faced the same situation. Their attitude appeared to be that we have to see the animal regardless of our safety, which I thought was appalling. I think the vet left the profession soon afterwards and I am not at all surprised. I wish this forum was around then, I am sure we could have drummed up some support for her!

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:06:08 GMT

Ha. Interesting. Certainly most policemen are under the same impression as me (which proves nothing, many policemen are very ignorant of firearms law) and policemen are certainly allowed to haul you in, and seize your firearm temporarily, in such circumstances even if they've got the law wrong. Very funny business.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:57:38 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I think it does[/quote]

I had been told that was the case by a number of people so I spoke to my FEO and trawled through lots of legislation and I can find no mention of that:

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place
(a)a loaded shot gun,
(b)an air weapon (whether loaded or not),
(c)any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or
(d)an imitation firearm

Firearms Act 1968 with amendments.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:49:00 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If you are carrying a gun then the law doesn't distinguish between loaded and not.[/quote]

I think it does. I'm fairly sure that even if you have a gun with you perfectly legally, it's an offence to go about with a loaded gun, and "loaded" includes having rounds in the magazine even if the magazine is in your pocket.

If you really did threaten an assailant with a gun, it would certainly lead to a lot of questioning if the police got to know, possibly temporary seizure of your firearms and even permanent seizure if the police were in a funny mood or the chief constable were that way inclined.

On the other hand, I threatened the b****** I caught stealing my chickens with a big machete, and nobody said a word. Funny old business.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:28:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Is suspect this was said tongue in cheek but I have actually done that in the past! Even though I am SA I got a gun just in case I ever had to shoot a horse and have kept the firearms licence. Trouble is if you go armed and prepared and shoot someone you're guilty of a greater crime and there is always the risk they could get the gun and use it against you.[/quote]

If you are carrying a gun then the law doesn't distinguish between loaded and not. You just have to have a lawful excuse. Vet on call with a likelihood of having to deal with a deer/horse/cow/sheep would easily satisfy the requirement. It would be unwise to leave the gun unattended in a vehicle, therefore placing it in you call bag to take into the surgery is a reasonable thing to do.

Whether using it in self defence was a crime would depend on the circumstances. You will have likely heard of the farmer who shot 2 burglars and walked away scot free. So long as your self defence is proportionate then you'd be ok. If someone came at you with a knife then yes, if they smelt strongly of alcohol and just came for a hug then no.

I would never carry the gun for that reason, but I usually take it with me OOH because even the nicest calving can turn into a disaster.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Bob Russell — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 12:38:56 GMT

I was offered a lap dance as payment for a cat spay. Shame I didn't agree!

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 12:02:54 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

If you're a large animal vet you could always take the gun when on call.

[/quote] Is suspect this was said tongue in cheek but I have acutally done that in the past! Even though I am SA I got a gun just in case I ever had to shoot a horse and have kept the firearms licence. Trouble is if you go armed and prepared and shoot someone you're guilty of a greater crime and there is always the risk they could get the gun and use it against you. I've never personally had an actual issue but the locums have, I've had people threaten me but I think I can look pretty mean when I want to so they've always backed down. I do worry about leaving the nurse alone though even for a short time if I have to pop out.

As for Evelyn's experience - I think you were being a bit naive there buddy! I've not had too much doubt as to the intentions of glammed up or skimpily clad up women clients in those circumstances!!

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:08:16 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I would put personal safety as the priority. The RCVS can go and do various anatomically challenging things to themselves but at least I would be safe!

I am too old and ugly to have much of a problem but if I were younger and female I would be very reluctant to visit at night. We have a panic button installed and have never had a problem at the practice. We do have a CCTV camera in the waiting room.

We were (thankfully) warned by another practice that a vet had visited a client only to find some very offensive material displayed on the computer. As I usually take a member of staff on visits it was decided that we would not visit this person. He comes to us but only on sufferance, he is a pain!

If you feel threatened/scared by visiting OOH you need to discuss this with your bosses. If in doubt, don't! There are few situations where welfare is genuinely going to be compromised.

Perhaps the murder of one of our colleagues (whilst possibly not directly work related) will bring a sense of realism to the RCVS, bosses and the general public.

[/quote]

Agree with all the above. Worth pointing out though that it is not just females who are at risk! How many male vets would be able to cope with a man armed with a knife or a gun? Or a group of "yoofs" - or even one psychotic drugged up individual?

We need to be careful not to get carried away and overstate the risks - attacks on vets are currently extremely rare it seems (and there is as yet no indication that the recent murder was related to her being a vet at all) but someone at some point is going to work out that vets are soft targets. What could be easier than luring a vet with their drugs/kit/car/phone/cash to a scene of your choosing? The current situation of the RCVS forcing vets to do OOH visits is untenable and I don't think it should wait until a tragedy happens before it is challenged.

Re: Safety and OOH visits

Bob Russell — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 10:25:42 GMT

I would put personal safety as the priority. The RCVS can go and do various anatomically challenging things to themselves but at least I would be safe!

If you feel threatened/scared by visiting OOH you need to discuss this with your bosses. If in doubt, don't! There are few situations where welfare is genuinely going to be compromised.

Perhaps the murder of one of our colleagues (whilst possibly not directly work related) will bring a sense of realism to the RCVS, bosses and the general public.

My sister-in-law was issued with a personal alarm which was enough to distract anyone. Either press the button or if keys are pulled from the unit will trigger the alarm.