Do we need another vet school?

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Chris Allen — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:28:06 GMT

Talking about vet nursing when I was doing my undergrad we had a vet nursing course running. Feedback I heard from students on it was dreadful with the "university" saying not to worry about finding placements all year as they would do it for you and then at last minute saying it was the students responsibility and why hadn't they found a placement.

Loads of students got transferred off the course onto animal behaviour or animal science courses instead because the uni didn't find them placements.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 13:44:40 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]and guess what - they are not responsible for any practical training [/quote]

And, worse still, they will not consider it their responsibility to ascertain whether access to such practical training even exists ............... they will be more than happy as long as they get their fees.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Richard Carter — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 12:50:57 GMT

Another vet school and back to another thread - the local college (calls itself a university these days) is starting vet nursing - and guess what - they are not responsible for any practical training - up to the students to sort themselves out.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 09:06:07 GMT

I used to be far more nervous at vivas than at written exams.

Wynne

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Linda Filshie — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 07:37:57 GMT

[quote user="Chris Allen"]

You still had to wait for exams, we get told there and then whether we have passed or failed. We also get to arrange our own exam timetable so we can spread the exams out as much as we need, and do them in the order we want to as well. :D

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Never had to wait months for results personally - they were up the next week (Glasgow). Doesn't seem a huge benefit to me. I can see the attraction in oral exams but essay questions have their pros too.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Linda Filshie — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 07:37:52 GMT

[quote user="Chris Allen"]

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Re: Do we need another vet school?

Chris Allen — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:43:36 GMT

There may be some variation however when it comes to class sizes, practicals and cost.... Abroad wins each time! :D Asfaik there are English language programs in Slovakia (Kosice), Hungary (Budapest), Poland (Warsaw, Wroclaw), Czech Republic (Brnu). There are some more among the other countries but I've never had any contact with them.

In terms of cost, tuition here is 7500 euros, and accomodation is 120 euros a month....

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Wren — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:13:27 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

There is variation between UK universities though, when I was at Cambridge (graduated in 2003) it was never a problem to approach a lecturer at the end of a lecture or practical session, or go knock on their door if you wanted to see them at another time. Also we used to get the results of written exams within a fortnight before we went home at the end of term. I'm not going to argue about current costs though!

[/quote]

Ditto Glasgow

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:34:28 GMT

[quote user="Chris Allen"]

I am a student that moved to Kosice in Slovakia to study as a vet (did Biovet in the UK but couldn't afford to stay at a UK uni). To be honest I regret not coming out here sooner as I feel I get better value for money. In the UK to talk to a lecturer you had to email days in advance for an appointment, here you just turn up and knock on the door, go in, sit down and share coffee & biscuits! Then there is the practical side, you actually get to stuff in classes (im in my second year here and have already done rat spays, castrations etc), and also the exams are oral which means unlike in the UK you don't have to wait months for results. There are around 200 of us out here, and its becoming a much better option for people financially!

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Re: Do we need another vet school?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 08:31:15 GMT

There will be an awful lot of heartbreak when dedicated young people train for their favoured career, and then can't get work.

Wynne

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Chris Allen — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:02:05 GMT

I was also at a summit in France at the start of the month with vet students from around the world, I was shocked to learn that Italy has 14 vet schools! Each one churns out around 140 graduates each year with no jobs avaiable :(

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 14:08:01 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

If we really are to have vast numbers of veterinary places and most will not graduate into vets why do none of the universities offer a 'pre-vet' start for the first couple of years? I assume most of the teaching is still generally science based as it was in my day!

The third year could then allow the student (now older and wiser) to continue to veterinary training or head off in a different direction.

[/quote]

American education is partly based around the fact that at 18 most teenagers are undecided, where at 22 they are more certain, so the first few years are spent on 'general education'. The question with this approach though is after 2 years how many will follow a different course. Hannah is right doing an intercalated is an option, but with my nutrition degree was I going to follow this or be a vet? having worked so hard to get there?

The GP debate/lack of is interesting. There are lots of teenagers who want to be doctors, but not enough space, yet we have a shortage of doctors? Why as a country don't we agree to pay them £60.000 a year, which is still a great salary (as salaried GP's/assistants get as the going rate) train loads, get more doctors and relieve the numbers that may want to be vets?

Neil

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 13:33:07 GMT

That option already exists. Veterinary students can do the pre-clinical 2 years, then intercalate to do a BSc. Theoretically, some could choose to leave then (with only 3 years debt) but those who've got onto the veterinary course stay, because (news to Lord Trees) they actually want to be veterinary surgeons.

Wynne

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 12:38:07 GMT

The third year could then allow the student (now older and wiser) to continue to veterinary training or head off in a different direction.

This would fill the schools but allow career choices to be flexible. This would have to be better than expensive training to do a specific range of jobs that are not actually there!

I know some universities already share pre-clinical years but expanding this would seem the logical way to fill these places at £9K a year but allow students to do a science degree, medical degree or become veterinary surgeons.

Students could respond accordingly to the jobs market by committing later in their studies.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Anonymous — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 11:52:47 GMT

I can see a post graduate pre registration phase coming! Bit like the PDP but probably no pay and further assesments before you get to be a MRCVS.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 10:54:15 GMT

I can see the whole system collapsing. Students won't be able to get EMS places, or practices will have so many students that they just stand around, but rarely get to do anything, so their future employers will need to do even more nursemaiding.

Wynne

Re: Do we need another vet school?

No Name — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 09:54:35 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

Back in the day (not all that long ago - I graduated in 2000) students didn't have cars. I went all round the country via British Rail to see practice. Seemingly short journeys could take a full day as to get to the inevitably rural location of the practice you often needed to change train twice, accompanied by long waits for connections at branch stations and lugging bags of wellies and waterproofs from platform to platform, Then there was the taxi at the far end for the last part of the journey. Rail tickets were (and probably still are) extortionate. Be grateful for the lesser cost, ease and freedom of car travel!

I wouldn't swap you for fees though. I was at uni in the last days of the student grant and received approximately £70 a term (one term I got a cheque for 32p...). I still had maximum loans but no fees to pay. My student debt was paid off after 9 years.

[/quote]

I am definitely grateful for the ease of being able to travel by car as I realise there are few in my year who don't have that luxury. I remember going by public transport to all my placements before uni and how difficult it was to get to some places and how long it would take. When you factor in insurance, car tax, petrol and possible breakdowns/MOTs then it probably doesn't work out that much cheaper than using public transport but it is a lot easier.

I think now with more students there is more of a strain on EMS placements, however, and am finding that I need to travel ever greater distances just to get EMS (especially farm/equine) or I am required to book as far as 2 years in advanced for some places. I am not sure how it will be sustainable to find EMS placements for everyone in future, especially if these new Universities outsource all their rotations to neighbouring practices in a 'distributive model' .

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Wren — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 08:46:03 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]

So long as the bill doesn't ultimately land on the student's head. From the other side of the fence, as a student, I wish we got reimbursed for petrol from Unis but of course we don't get a penny and not all of us get petrol money from our parents! :(

[/quote]

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 00:55:04 GMT

I agree to a point. These students are some of the brightest in the country - they need to look at the current market for vets, see what they can earn and then make their choice if it's the career for them. They are not absolved of all responsibility.

There's a myriad of degrees out there that are not particularly likely to get you a job, and people do the courses.

In this climate I don't blame the universities.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 16 Jul 2014 23:16:26 GMT

I can't highlight a post as on an iPAD, to quote, so have pasted............................................................... I'd personally be in favour of capping university places (for all courses) so that the reflect the general job market AND get rid of some of the pointless degrees completely. It seems like everyone can go to university who can pass A levels whereas some skills could be attained through colleges or other forms of learning.' .......................................................................................................................................................................... 29 years ago when I entered vet school, input was capped to the numbers needed. The RVC graduated 70 vets, part of 350 total every year. I attended the countries second largest comprehensive, 360 in each year and 50 of us went to university or polytechnic. So this system once existed. Neil

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 16 Jul 2014 16:44:26 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]

And whilst the uni gets more money, less of this money seems to be passed onto benefiting the students. A lot of the extra financial support has been axed at my University for the years below me. None of the services such as libraries have improved since the change in fees. The only place I've seen this money go into is a brand new halls of residence (charging silly prices for students when it opens). In the meantime, our vet lecture theatre at Leahurst is technically too small for my year group...

[/quote]

How much more money are the universities getting? I thought there had been a significant cut in government funding, hence the need to charge students.

Re: Do we need another vet school?

No Name — Wed, 16 Jul 2014 16:27:53 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]when can practice principles start billing the universities or even the RCVS who insist on 'seeing practice'[/quote]

[quote user="Tim Browning"]Another issue with the oversupply of expensively trained vets with rose tinted spectacles attached is that many will never pay back their large loans as will leave the profession or be under the threshold. The loan scheme will lead to debt in the future for the nation to fund and the only winners will be those at Universities currently eyeing up the cash cows.[/quote]

One thing I don't understand is why some of my cousins, who live outside of the UK, get FREE university education (which I am a bit envious of). I'd personally be in favour of capping university places (for all courses) so that the reflect the general job market AND get rid of some of the pointless degrees completely. It seems like everyone can go to university who can pass A levels whereas some skills could be attained through colleges or other forms of learning.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Apparently we already have a de facto additional vet school. A veterinary student phoned me yesterday asking if he could see practice. When I inquired as to which veterinary school he was attending he answered Warsaw. I commented that his English was pretty perfect for a Pole and he replied that he was English and that there was an English speaking course. Anyone else aware of that one?[/quote]

I once looked into going to Poland for an English speaking 5.5 year course (Wrocław rather than Warsaw though) if I failed to get into a UK vet school before the £9k rise. Tuition fees + living expenses were much lower and at the time they told me all I had to do was "pass" my A levels to get in (no need for high grades), no interviews and no work experience requirement either. Luckily I got into Liverpool but if someone is willing to move abroad then it's quite an attractive option for some UK students who can't get in here or for graduates who can't afford the £20k (!!) annual fees that some of them are paying...

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Jul 2014 13:44:37 GMT

If all the surplus veterinary surgeons are going to find work in the House of Lords,then a significant amount of taxpayers money will be wasted on extending the Palace of Westminster!

Wynne

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Utlendigur — Wed, 16 Jul 2014 13:26:37 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]I read this and thought it was extremely patronising and disingenuous. Someone so high up in our profession cannot possibly believe that students who spend all their time and energy getting on to the vet course and spend 5 years studying to do the job, will then be happy to not actually be vets at the end of it. [/quote]

But given that the person writing it, according to his RCVS biography has done a "year in mixed practice" then variously Industry advisor, academic research, teaching, editor in chief, peer....working as a GP vet is something he doesn't seem to have experienced for long

Re: Do we need another vet school?

Tim Browning — Wed, 16 Jul 2014 12:29:50 GMT

Another issue with the oversupply of expensively trained vets with rose tinted spectacles attached is that many will never pay back their large loans as will leave the profession or be under the threshold. The loan scheme will lead to debt in the future for the nation to fund and the only winners will be those at Universities currently eyeing up the cash cows.