Inappropriate crosses

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:12:30 GMT

Just had a look at the ops list for this week - on one of my ops days there's an akita x husky booked in for castration...

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:05:36 GMT

Jerseys cope very well with Charollais x calves-but I don't know about Belgians

Wynne

Re: Inappropriate crosses

james herriot lied — Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:34:30 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]

Jerseys have huge pelvises!

[/quote]

. Not round here, they don't. To be fair, the BBBs are much better calving these days, but I'd still run a mile from advocating widespread service into an unsuspecting population of jerseys. Let's come back to the thread in a year's time and see who was right

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Sarah Keir — Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:48:33 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Inappropriate crossing on a grand scale:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-20003675

I think our large animal colleagues in Jersey are about to become very practised at caesareans.....

[/quote]

Not necessarily. I worked in mixed practice in Cumbria a few years back and there was one large jersey herd there that used Belgium Blue semen. I never did a caesar on that farm. Jerseys have huge pelvises!

Re: Inappropriate crosses

plantagenet — Sun, 21 Oct 2012 11:29:38 GMT

[quote user="Alison McIntosh"]Anyone read 'The Epigenetics Revolution' by Nessa Carey? It's got some very interesting stuff on the influence that the mother's environment can have on the genetic expression of the unborn offspring. Blurs the nature vs nurture argument nicely!

[/quote]

Of course nature and nurture have a blurred influence, but it does not exclude the importance of the genetic starting point and, personally, I don't believe that all the nurture in the world will sort a baddun.

Re: Inappropriate crosses

sam aldridge — Sun, 21 Oct 2012 00:22:26 GMT

as an aside 'pure bread Jersey's'?! and from the BBC too :(

Re: Inappropriate crosses

james herriot lied — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 23:45:26 GMT

Inappropriate crossing on a grand scale:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-20003675

I think our large animal colleagues in Jersey are about to become very practised at caesareans.....

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Alison McIntosh — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 22:31:00 GMT

Anyone read 'The Epigenetics Revolution' by Nessa Carey? It's got some very interesting stuff on the influence that the mother's environment can have on the genetic expression of the unborn offspring. Blurs the nature vs nurture argument nicely!

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Mark Holmes — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 20:53:50 GMT

Your last sentence is non sensical, you say you don't believe it applies to a breed but some breed lines. If it can apply to a breed line it can apply to a breed. In fact if it can apply to a breed line it is likely to apply to a breed given how humans have applied selection over the years. I quite agree I think it's heritable, I just disagree on its degree.

Re: Inappropriate crosses

mariette asselbergs — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 18:16:11 GMT

"That's non sensical, if it can affect some breed lines in some breeds it can affect some breeds if those lines have been selected over a period of time".Mark Holmes

Sorry Mark, what is non sensical about there being lines or clusters in e breed where certain traits are part of the genetics, without this being so for the whole breed? Staying with Bouviers, in the early 70's in Holland there were suddenly lots of bouviers with vocal cord paralysis. After a while it became clear that the cause of this was massive activity of the national champion stud dog of the time who happened to breed for this with a dominant mutant gene. So I don't see the nonsensical thing?

Mariette

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Christopher Saul — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 14:22:44 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The mind boggles at how the mating was achieved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/quote]

It wasn't - I was being purile... Shiht-berger...

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Mark Holmes — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 14:20:58 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

"But I have yet to see a dog belonging to a knowledgeable dog owner who knows their breed and dogs temperament be aggressive" Rajat

Here is one. I had had three bouviers in my life, all of them the sweetest, most stable lovely dogs imaginable. vI was very much of the opinion that upb ringing was everything with dogs and good training/upbringing would take care of any breed issues. Then I did a caesarean on a bouvier bitch whose owner had no money and offered me a pup as payment. Since my last dog had died just a few months before I accepted, even though the bitch was not nice and had had to be muzzled for me to examine her. (Not nice owner either). I had the pup at 5 weeks old and she spent all her time with me and was brought up as all the others, with cats and children and goats and other dogs. However, this puppy right from 8-10 weeks old showed much more stressed out behaviour and her baseline reaction was always to bite. I did get her to grow up as an acceptable nice dog, and I was fond of her, but I always had to be careful because I knew she could be nasty if she didn't like a situation or a person. During her life it happened several times that she suddenly took against somebody and I could not trust her with that person around. Since this experience I have reluctantly accepted that nature is important re aggression and that there is sometimes only so much a good and experienced owner can do to amend problematic genetically based tendencies.

I do agree with other posters that it is not specifically "breed", but "breed lines or clusters".

Mariette

[/quote] That's non sensical, if it can affect some breed lines in some breeds it can affect some breeds if those lines have been selected over a period of time.

Re: Inappropriate crosses

mariette asselbergs — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:49:31 GMT

"All other things being equal, would you rather TB test a herd of Herefords or Limousins?" Virginia Cambell

Let alone Brahmans, they even try to bite you! And they jump 2 meter high fences from standing position........

Mariette

Re: Inappropriate crosses

mariette asselbergs — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:41:01 GMT

"But I have yet to see a dog belonging to a knowledgeable dog owner who knows their breed and dogs temperament be aggressive" Rajat

I do agree with other posters that it is not specifically "breed", but "breed lines or clusters".

Mariette

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:14:38 GMT

The mind boggles at how the mating was achieved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Christopher Saul — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:43:44 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]Can anyone beat that for an inappropriate cross?[/quote]

Shih Tzu X Leonberger . Imagine calling that one out in the waiting room with ladies present

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Rajat — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 19:15:20 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Rajat"]But I have yet to see a dog belonging to a knowledgeable dog owner who knows their breed and dogs temperament be aggressive (am still young am sure it will happen !)[/quote]

Oh yes it happens. The one I remember best was a Malamute. The owner was used to the breed, was very knowledgeable and also very sensible, did everything right, but the dog could not be trusted not to take someone's arm off.

[/quote]

Re reading it, this was a naive statement on my part!

I suppose I should have said more likely to happen with inexperienced owners rather than experienced ones

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Rajat — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 19:10:16 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]Yep, but he now only snarls because I had his nuts off.[/quote]

Can't blame him for that!

Is he 'snarly' just towards you/vets or other people as well?

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Rajat — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 19:09:09 GMT

I think indirectly, most of us are in broad agreement if I am not mistaken

1. Not all dogs from any one breed are aggressive

2. Temperament is heritable (though to what degree and with what consistency remains open)

3. Nurture, i.e. the pups interaction with their mothers and humans and environment plays a significant role in the development of their characters (and aggressive traits).

4. Some dogs are aggressive enough towards humans to require euthanasia, and they are usually of the larger more muscular breeds.

I think for the DDA to be valid in its current incarnation, it has to show that a majority or very large percentage of dogs from a particular breed were aggressive towards humans despite the above factors i.e. were genetically and pheno-typically predisposed to attack humans regardless of upbringing.

Currently I think pitbull and their cross type dogs are over-represented because they are the favored breeds amongst certain social strata and outnumber other breeds - and in this environment interdog and dog-human aggression is encouraged and these traits consciously and unconsciously selected for!!. Hence the dog becomes a guard dog to protect the family/owner whatever from others on the street and in the home. If an equal number of rotties or akitas or malamutes were kept in this setting I would not be surprised if they too had a similar incidence of dog on human aggression.

I think temperament's ability to be transferable has been used for a long time by humans in domesticating animals; the fox experiments in Siberia were a perfect example of how quickly aggressive/fearful/nervous traits (wilder type) can be bred out....I can't see why they cannot hence be bred out in the breeds which we are currently terming as dangerous.

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:20:50 GMT

Well in many ways surely the reason we choose to have a particular breed as a pet is because not only do we like the appearance/size but we also like the temperament, so obviously we feel that some of the good points are passed on. In which case surely bad points are too. Although I have a foot in the nurture camp too. One of the nastiest dogs I ever put down was a 2 year old chocolate lab which first attempted to bite me at 10 week 1st vaccination time. I know that is only one dog but it proves that some are just bad'uns!

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:07:29 GMT

I had a patient like that :p

Re: Inappropriate crosses

plantagenet — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:48:37 GMT

Why are we surprised that some breeds are more likely to be aggressive than others - what is it 35000 years humans have been breeding dogs to do stuff for us, including rounding up sheep or protecting our property. So if behaviour is so breed specific it is obviously heritable. Consequently I would expect aggressive behaviour also to be.

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:48:25 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Tuley"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]
Even if you were interested enough in busybodying to conduct an analysis of your patient's features to see how many points matched, you should still mind your own business unless you feel there is a pressing and over-riding reason not to.

[/quote]

You mean, after it's bitten a small child?

[/quote]

There's not the slightest indication in Anthony's post that the dog is any likelier than any other dog to bite a small child.

Re: Inappropriate crosses

plantagenet — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:45:41 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]PS has anyone met an aggressive dobermann - genuinely curious because I never have yet they seem to have a bad rep - think the pitbulls kind of deflected the attention from the dobies rotties and GSDs![/quote]

Yep, but he now only snarls because I had his nuts off.

Re: Inappropriate crosses

Elizabeth Tuley — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:44:20 GMT

[/quote]

You mean, after it's bitten a small child?