CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:00:52 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]I could not get my dog to the vet with the hours that I work[/quote]

If you was one of my clients who was complaining that they can't get to us within our normal weekday hours (8.30am - 6.30pm), I would be advising you that you shouldn't have a dog....!!!

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

patrick murphy — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:04:00 GMT

me too. I could not get my dog to the vet with the hours that I work, and I know that there are many other hard working people who care for their pets that appreciate it. my trainee nurse runs Saturdays almost like a diffeent clinic, and she does things like sexing baby small furries, ear cleaning for elderly clients, and hands out food and drugs at their convenience. I work, and yes they are not emergencies, and in my view quite enjoyable to do because of that, and also for the sickies that we may have. I know dinasour

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 15:01:03 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I have never been able to work out why practices that subscribe to and pay for an OOH provider still open for 1 hour on Sunday mornings?

[/quote]

We use an OOH provider, they take over at 5pm on a Saturday, but we open for 2 hours on a Sunday morning. The only pre-booked appointments are re-checks. The answerphone message they get overnight on Saturday advises them to call Vets Now for an emergency, but that we are open on Sunday for urgent cases and they should call at 9am. We mostly see cases that could probably wait until the Monday, but do benefit from being seen earlier, like lame dogs, etc. If they need further treatment, like the dehydrated, inappetant cat I saw this Sunday, they get sent on to Vets Now.

The clients really appreciate this service, we do charge extra, but still a lot less than a Vets Now consultation.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Ian Mostyn — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 13:14:17 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I have never been able to work out why practices that subscribe to and pay for an OOH provider still open for 1 hour on Sunday mornings?

How many true emergencies, and how many boosters, anal glands, nails etc do you see?

If it is a real emergency and needs ongoing care, given you are only open for one hour, don't they need transferring to the OOH provider anyway?

[/quote]

I do half of the Sunday mornings and in 3 years have only done 1 booster for a dog going into kennels that morning. They paid the extra charge without complaint. I have never done anal glands or a nail clip. The average cases we see are the urgent ones that don't justify an emergency callout but are best not left until Monday - vomiting, diarrhoea, cut pads, rabbits not eating, high fevers etc. I did a pyo the other week but did the aftercare myself, otherwise we don't get many emergencies, they are handled by our OOH provider and people generally go there. We make it clear on our answerphone that this is for urgent cases but emergencies should go to the OOH practice. It has actually worked well and since we often have in-patients (usually reptiles) having a 90 minute slot when we are in actually frees up a lot of other time. I can easily plan things for Sunday afternoon. We only have 1 nurse in who has already worked the Saturday and they know they are almost certainly finished by 12 noon and have been paid time and half. Saying all that, we have no intention of increasing our weekend hours from this. Slippery slope

Ian

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 12:50:37 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I have never been able to work out why practices that subscribe to and pay for an OOH provider still open for 1 hour on Sunday mornings? [/quote]

It has worked out really well actually. The assistants only do this every 6 weeks and get the following Friday afternoon off so don't seem to mind. We would need a nurse and a vet to come in anyway to check on any inpatients, but we can also see urgent (but not emergency) cases and recheck those of our patients who can't wait till Monday. An example may be a sick animal that was seen on Saturday but should be ok - but needs a quick check to be sure - or a bandaged animal whose bandaged has slipped. (We don't get any routine stuff because we charge more than our usual consult fee, and this fact is stated on the answer machine message. Tends to put people off.) This system allows better continuity of care for our patients.

Obviously if something very sick comes in they would be redirected to the OOH provider - which is only a 5 minute drive away.

Incidentally, we usually take more money in our Sunday morning surgery than we used to do over a whole weekend of OOH. This helps to cover the cost of outsourcing our OOH!

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Elizabeth Tuley — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 12:24:59 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I have never been able to work out why practices that subscribe to and pay for an OOH provider still open for 1 hour on Sunday mornings?

How many true emergencies, and how many boosters, anal glands, nails etc do you see?

If it is a real emergency and needs ongoing care, given you are only open for one hour, don't they need transferring to the OOH provider anyway?

Does it p*** off the staff? I know where I have done locums that include open surgeries on Saturday and Sundays, they are a real pain - I work hard all week and weekends should be down time.

Not criticising, just interested.

[/quote]

I work for a practice that pays for an external provider to do our OOH, yet still open for a short period on a Saturday morning. Yes, we mostly see boosters/AGs etc and most true emergencies will need transfer to the OOH. However, we do have many clients who work during the week and therefore are very grateful for the opportunity to have a routine appointment on a Saturday when they actually can make it. It doesn't bother me to work a 1-in-3 Saturday morning.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:37:56 GMT

If there is no provision for taking time off for CPD in the contract then it is a no-brainer - if you choose to take time off in working time for CPD it comes out of leave time however that is interpreted, if you choose to take it on your day off that is your choice there is no reason why the employer should give you more time off in lieu. It is the employers decision, whether that is beneficial to his practice or not is his choice. I'm sole charge but my nursing staff are given 3 days in addition to their holiday time for CPD which they want to do if I feel it will be beneficial to the practice, if I don't then they take it out of their leave. If I say,:you're going to BSAVA this week', not only would it be entirely with no penalty in time off but if it went over a weekend that was their weekend off they would be given time off in lieu, in practice they want to go and enjoy it and don't expect to be compensated but then they can always say no.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Clive Ansell — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:15:58 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I suppose I am looking at it from the standpoint of the rota at our practice. Our vets get one weekday off each week and one and a half days off when they work a Sunday morning surgery (1 hour emergency clinic every 6 weeks!) Therefore losing a few half days in a year is no big issue. On your rota, I think I would want to keep my rare time off intact!

[/quote]

I have never been able to work out why practices that subscribe to and pay for an OOH provider still open for 1 hour on Sunday mornings?

How many true emergencies, and how many boosters, anal glands, nails etc do you see?

If it is a real emergency and needs ongoing care, given you are only open for one hour, don't they need transferring to the OOH provider anyway?

Does it p*** off the staff? I know where I have done locums that include open surgeries on Saturday and Sundays, they are a real pain - I work hard all week and weekends should be down time.

Not criticising, just interested.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Sylvia Wilson — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:51:57 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="David Mills"] Most of these things, however, are about teamwork, and working 5 extra afternoons in a year for the sake of a jolly on a CPD isn't that much to ask and will help out your colleagues.[/quote]

Nicely put.

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]Time spent on training and time spent travelling to training away from your normal place of work count as working time under the Working Time Regs, so you are actually being expected to work extra hours for no extra pay! Don't forget you are entitled to 2 days' uninterrupted rest per 2 weeks and 11 hours per day uninterrupted rest. If you are not getting these, you can't opt out of them individually, your boss has to get everyone affected to agree in a "workplace agreement".[/quote]

If I worked in a practice where that sort of stuff sprang immediately to mind, I wouldn't be enjoying it.

[/quote]

But I donb't work in practice - I do HR consultancy and these are areas where too many practice owners either don't know the law or think that they don't have to obey it. As the Working Time Regs are part of health and safety law, they carry criminal penalties, including, in extreme cases, prison sentences (unlike most employment law, which is civil law and enforced via Emplyment Tribunals).

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:19:16 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

We work 9.5 hours on a Saturday and 6.5 hours on a Sunday, we have consults all day but obviously come in earlier or stay later if inpatients require additional care.

Thanks to everyone else for their comments, its just interesting to see what people's opinions are

[/quote]

I suppose I am looking at it from the standpoint of the rota at our practice. Our vets get one weekday off each week and one and a half days off when they work a sunday morning surgery (1 hour emergency clinic every 6 weeks!) Therefore losing a few half days in a year is no big issue. On your rota, I think I would want to keep my rare time off intact!

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

J G Wray — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 07:34:22 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]However I know that I practice better, more efficiently and proactively when not tired, fed up and drained.[/quote]

Dp you mean you work when you are ill?

Flippant anecdote - I had my toe operated on last week. There's two rates of recovery from illness/surgery, PAYE and Self-Employed. Anyone want to see a photo?

JGW

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:14:33 GMT

Sounds like a killer rota to me. We certainly don't ask our vets to lose time off to cover cpd, we consider it to be an essential part of work so therefore a day working. If someone chooses to do cpd on a weekend off we wouldn't necessarily repay that day, but would be flexible. Having worked for many years with only a half day off in the week and doing quite a heavy weekend rota, we now all relish the full weekday we have off each week. It really does make life and therefore work more bearable. I often used to find at my half day started really late if it was a busy day, whereas a day off means no contact if at all possible!

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Mark Holmes — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:08:45 GMT

It's amazing how many times posts are placed where it seems practice owners equate profitability with screwing as many hours and as much out of their staff as possible. I say this appreciating I am not an owner and the one sided nature of the posts. However I know that I practice better, more efficiently and proactively when not tired, fed up and drained. I present a better face to the public and I expect my work is more profitable on all measures tangibly and intangibly. My impression is that many of these harsh rotas are self defeating

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

An On MRCVS — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:26:05 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]currently we work a 7 day week one in 3 weeks [/quote]

How many hours are you at work over the weekend, or is this mainly an on-call weekend?

[/quote]

We work 9.5 hours on a Saturday and 6.5 hours on a Sunday, we have consults all day but obviously come in earlier or stay later if inpatients require additional care.

Thanks to everyone else for their comments, its just interesting to see what people's opinions are

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:37:53 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]currently we work a 7 day week one in 3 weeks [/quote]

How many hours are you at work over the weekend, or is this mainly an on-call weekend?

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Utlendigur — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:36:35 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]working for a tiny enterprise.[/quote]

He/she didn't mention the size of practice - could be anything from 2 vets to huge mutivet practice to be fair.

The point I was trying to make is that CPD seems to be seen by some veterinary bosses purely as a nuisance, and regarded as employees causing problems and disruption, or having a "day off", rather than a benefit to the employee and the practice alike (and required by RCVS)

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:16:51 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]A friend of mine is a chemical engineer working for a big chemical company.[/quote]

But, Utlendigur, the original poster is a veterinary surgeon working for a tiny enterprise.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Utlendigur — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:49:42 GMT

A friend of mine is a chemical engineer working for a big chemical company. If he has to do CPD it is counted as working time, even travelling to it is counted as working hours. If the CPD is at a weekend, he gets time off in lieu during the week. He couldn't believe how much vets are expected to do CPD in their own time, and are actually penalised for weekday CPD by working extra hours to "make up" the time off.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Rajat — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:42:43 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]that if we take a day off to do CPD we will lose our half day that week. Can he do that?[/quote]

He can but he should not. Do you not have a CPD allowance which gives you a certain number of days off for CPD?

I agree with Hannah too - bit of a tough rota - but fine if the job is good- I would stand my ground and say to the boss I aint having it - for me CPD is CPD- and defined like that in my contract- I get x days and x £ to do what I see fit with for my training (within some limits of course, no point in learning polar bear medicine on a 5day trip to Alaska, hardly gonna help the practice) and this is separate from any othe rleave- unless the CPD I choose happens to be on a weekend in which case it comes out of my time if that makes sense

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:35:36 GMT

I agree with Hannah. The CPD issue aside, the hours at this practice seem pretty excessive with a 7-day week every 3rd week. And I'm betting you work 10-11 hour days on your full days. I would look for another job!

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:21:48 GMT

Nicely put.

If I worked in a practice where that sort of stuff sprang immediately to mind, I wouldn't be enjoying it.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

David Mills — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:08:18 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

Don't forget you are entitled to 2 days' uninterrupted rest per 2 weeks and 11 hours per day uninterrupted rest. If you are not getting these, you can't opt out of them individually, your boss has to get everyone affected to agree in a "workplace agreement".

[/quote]

Devil's in the detail with these things. If you do on call and you can be away from the premises then this doesn't count as working time. Workplace agreements can be a condition of employment (unlike the opt-out of the 48-hour week which are voluntary). The above timings can be reasonably delayed if the needs of the business dictate so.

Your boss will likely invoke the line in most contracts that time off in lieu is discretionary and can be reasonably withheld if the needs of the business dictate so. If you really drag your feet he may be able to cancel your current contract (the position as you have it no longer exists) and re-employ you (or someone else) with the new hours as a newly defined role. Most of these things, however, are about teamwork, and working 5 extra afternoons in a year for the sake of a jolly on a CPD isn't that much to ask and will help out your colleagues.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Sylvia Wilson — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:36:57 GMT

This is essentially a change to your contract of employment, so it should be done on the basis of consultation rather than being imposed by the boss unilaterally.

Time spent on training and time spent travelling to training away from your normal place of work count as working time under the Working Time Regs, so you are actually being expected to work extra hours for no extra pay! Don't forget you are entitled to 2 days' uninterrupted rest per 2 weeks and 11 hours per day uninterrupted rest. If you are not getting these, you can't opt out of them individually, your boss has to get everyone affected to agree in a "workplace agreement".

Sylvia

Practice Perfect

Veterinary Personnel Consultancy

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Liz w — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 08:49:42 GMT

Don't know legally, but I don't feel it's that big a deal, depending on what hours you work on a day to day basis. Presumably it is a maximum of 5 weeks a year that it would happen.

Re: CPD, change in working hours/entitlement

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 08:49:26 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]if we take a day off to do CPD we will lose our half day that week.[/quote]

Is that really such a big problem to you?

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Can he do that?[/quote]

As has been said, that depends on what your contract says.

IMHO it is a pefectly reasonable suggestion in order to ease the burden of CPD to your colleagues - including yourself when someone else is off. No?