Working after hours

Re: Working after hours

Mark Holmes — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:35:18 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Burston"]

Thanks everyone, I'm glad that you all thought it was madness too! Sometimes in this profession is feels like you aren't dedicated enough unless you spend all hours at work and are happy to cancel plans at the drop of a hat if an emergency comes in. I'd handed my notice in before I posted on here and now I definately know what I'm looking for in my next job!

[/quote]

Hence the boldness in posting under your name.

Re: Working after hours

Sarah Burston — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:14:08 GMT

Re: Working after hours

Braden Collins — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:08:49 GMT

In my first job we would get paid half of the professional fees if we were on call, and all of them if another clinic was on call in such a case (we shared after hours between clinics). The client would generally get a nursing fee added but that was about it. The bosses accepted they made a bit less money that way, but it ensured we were always willing to see a case, no matter what time they contacted us. The clients really appreciated it, the employees benefited and got rewarded, and the bosses say the benefits of happy clients and staff.

Re: Working after hours

Utlendigur — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:46:49 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]print off the management standards section and leave it in your boss's in tray[/quote]

I pinned this up on the practice noticeboard a few years ago - boss didn't get it

Re: Working after hours

Luciano Nebiante PGCertSAS — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:23:51 GMT

Thanks Sarah, helpful link.

Re: Working after hours

Sylvia Wilson — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:25:34 GMT

Sarah

I agree with everyone who says you are being exploited and should move on - I left onbe job after only 6 weeks for similar reasons. Have a look at www.hse.gov.uk/stress , print off the management standards section and leave it in your boss's in tray. Then start job hunting!

Sylvia

Re: Working after hours

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:16:59 GMT

To go back to OP my RVN gets time and a half if staying late If she's called back she also gets a call out fee which are both added to the bill A case like this would need overnight hospitalisation, so depending on how ill it was either a veterinary or nursing hourly rate would be added for the night Yes it can work out expensive-but justified I don't have a veterinary assistant-I tried but wasn't very good at persuading them todo things my way, so found it less stressful to do without, but if I did employ one I would give a fair bonus I would alsoexpect the assistant to be prepared to give the levelof care necessary

Wynne

Re: Working after hours

Mark Holmes — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 07:45:52 GMT

Absolute madness Sarah, the practice is essentially creating a disincentive to work and stress at the time.

Re: Working after hours

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 07:18:51 GMT

Sarah - why are you doing the late surgery every single night? You are being taken advantage of. Speak to them about how you feel but I think the only way you will improve your lot is by handing in your notice. And well done for having the cajones to use your real name on here.

Re: Working after hours

Rajat — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 01:44:50 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Burston"]

I work at a 3 branch practice, each branch has 1 vet. The other 2 branches close at 6pm and the phones transfer to my surgery. In this 30 minutes I frequently get clients calling up who want to be seen before we close but because they go to the other branches they sometimes can be up to 20 miles away so even if they call at 6pm they're still struggling to get in by 6.30pm so frequently I end up staying late here. Lay staff who stay late to help me get paid by the hour but I do not get any time off in lieu or payment. Clients who come in during normal hours (8.30-6.30) do not pay an OOH charge even if their workup/treatment goes on through the night.

Furthermore, we share our OOH cover with a neighbouring practice so 1 in 2 evening or weekends there is no one oncall from my practice. In patients are checked normally by the vet responsible for admitting them as a rota for this cover is not deemed necessary. This is only occasional but Saturday mornings when we are not on call for the rest of the weekend can be stressful- I find it difficult to make any plans for the weekend as I worry that I'll have to admit something and spend the weekend checking on it.

I enjoy what I do but also like to be able to make plans. OOH cover and inpatients is definately the most stressful part of my job

[/quote]

Sarah - I agree with the Gillian, JHL and others. Your position sounds awful and I hope you are able to drastically change your rota, one way or another

Re: Working after hours

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:46:22 GMT

Sarah,

I agree with JHL. You are being exploited.

Re: Working after hours

james herriot lied — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:52:55 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Burston"]

The other 2 branches close at 6pm and the phones transfer to my surgery. In this 30 minutes I frequently get clients calling up who want to be seen before we close but because they go to the other branches they sometimes can be up to 20 miles away so even if they call at 6pm they're still struggling to get in by 6.30pm so frequently I end up staying late here. Lay staff who stay late to help me get paid by the hour but I do not get any time off in lieu or payment.

Saturday mornings when we are not on call for the rest of the weekend can be stressful- I find it difficult to make any plans for the weekend as I worry that I'll have to admit something and spend the weekend checking on it.

I enjoy what I do but also like to be able to make plans. OOH cover and inpatients is definately the most stressful part of my job

[/quote]

Sarah,

Run. As far and as fast as you can.

We've spent a lot of forum time recently pontificating on the reasons why so many of us get stress, anxiety and depression. Your description of your normal working life is, quite simply, one of the most classic case studies I've ever seen. If we take the definition of stress to be the condition which ensues when one is not in control of one's local environment, then you must already be immensely stressed.

Your time is your time. It is not the practice's. Staying behind on those occasions when a sudden (and, let's face it, exciting and interesting) emergency comes in is one thing - how many of us haven't pulled an all-nighter with a pneumothorax dog - but being in a working position geared towards keeping you away from your own life, without reward or recompense, is simple exploitation. You also have a classic imbalance in the power base at work, where you're unable to protect your own workload at times of peak stress.

Ditto the weekends. If you want to stick around on a Saturday lunchtime, feel free. But your own plans being curtailed by a cr*p system of in-patient responsibility is wretched.

My assumption is that you're young and unencumbered with a family. Don't allow this position to turn you into a wreck - there are much better jobs out there with better bosses. If anybody so much as tries to tell you that you should just grin and bear it, punch them in the head, repeatedly.

Re: Working after hours

Rob Loxley — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:14:16 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Burston"] Lay staff who stay late to help me get paid by the hour but I do not get any time off in lieu or payment.[/quote]

I've never understood this, beyond the 'four yorkshiremen' mentality towards employed vets.

[quote user="Sarah Burston"] I worry that I'll have to admit something and spend the weekend checking on it[/quote]

Can you not get the other practice you share OOH with to look after it; maybe they'd gladly do it in return for you doing likewise?

Re: Working after hours

Luciano Nebiante PGCertSAS — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 19:20:07 GMT

Hi Sara,

it seems that you're spending a lot of "your" time in dealing with OOH cover and inpatients, and yet making money for the practices where you work.

It's for such reason that I believe the vets should receive a compensation for this kind of extra work.

I mean dealing with inpatient and doing work after hours allow the practice to make more money, and not compensating the vet for the job\time invested. As a paradox, it's more convenient to the practice if you work more after hours dealing with patients presented just 10-15 minutes before closing time.

As much as we love our job and our patients, but time is the most precious thing on earth for me.

All this has an impact on our private life, and will cause a good part of our stress together with discussing with some clients.

Certainly there is a solution (a fair treatment to the employee) to this stressful part of our job.

Re: Working after hours

Sarah Burston — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 18:14:01 GMT

I enjoy what I do but also like to be able to make plans. OOH cover and inpatients is definately the most stressful part of my job

Re: Working after hours

Luciano Nebiante PGCertSAS — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:14:33 GMT

Well thanks everyone for your important replies. It seems that there's a lot of variance between practices, either if OOH provided "in house" or by external specific clinic.

In summary, most of you charge an OOH fee, or the cost of same procedure is higher when done ooh (hospitalization over night for example).

It also seems that generally nurses get a better "deal" if staying after hours, where they will have a reward in money or time in lieu.

This is not compensated to all the vets, and probably the general feelings is: "the vet is in charge and responsible for the case, so it's vet's responsability to check the animal and treat it accordingly if it is an emergency and requires work after hours"

I understand the above point, and I'm very happy to deal with emergency and stay after hours, either because I like emergency work and because I want to do my best and try to save a pet's life if possible.

But from my employee point of view, I fully agree with Roboloxley:

[quote user="robloxley"]

If it's seen in surgery hours then consult fee as normal. If further work needed OOH then extra cost charged, else hospitalise til morning. Vets and nurses paid overtime.

[/quote]

and fully agree with Rajat:

[quote user="Rajat"]

Obviously charge for the work done - some places may charge extra for work done OOH or expect the OOH fee to relfect/compensate towards this aspect. Others don't.

If I was on call that night I expect no reward (doing own OOH?)

If I wasn't - hell yeah! I just gave up my free time so the practice could make some revenue.I would expect at least some time off in return.

If one is not doing their own OOH- it is not crazy to check the dog and either refer to OOH provider after basic triage +/- abdo radiography if needed.

[/quote]

So my personal view would be:

Normal consult fee if seen in hours, but if the pet requires some procedures that will take time and are likely life-saving (even if it is just to run a blood test, put the animal on fluids and start main treatment) then I think it's fair to charge an OOH fee and/or higher fee for same service but provided ooh.

I'm sure this would be fair to the clients, because otherwise they should call the OOH service (either provided by home clinic or different) with additional costs. And in my experience most of the clients understand your additional care provided out of normal working hours to save their pet, and they are thankful.

On the ther end, I would expect some rewards for doing that job ooh, simply because the practice is making more revenue but with my spare time. Those additional money earnt by the practice wouldn't have been possible without the vet sacrificing his\her own time. And let's not forget we should have a private life afterall.

I'd appreciate again your views on this.

Re: Working after hours

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:12:48 GMT

[quote user="Luciano Nebiante"]

Do you charge and OOH fee for all the work you have done after closing time?

2- If you are an emploee, do you get a reward for it, in terms of time off or money?

[/quote]

1. No, if they even ring up at one minute to closing then it's counted as in-hours. If it needs monitored throughout the night then they get change an intensive nursing fee which is £70

2. Overnight nurse is paid up to midnight. After that they get time off in lieu. Vet is paid up until 10pm. No reward for staying, but our consults finish at 8.45pm and if all the inpatients are done we can leave early, so it more or less balances out the occasional heroic surgery marathon or the evenings with a crammed consult list, loads of walkins and euths and a stack of inpatients that keep us there till 11pm.

Re: Working after hours

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:05:57 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]At the end of the day I am an employee, and expect a fair deal, and this is no reflection on my 'commitment' to the practice/profession, Martin.[/quote] Ouch. It was so much less painful when people red starred my posts rather than having to comment on them, but much less fun.

Re: Working after hours

Rob Loxley — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:50:58 GMT

I don't get the 'no extra cost OOH' - IMHO it should be extra beyond routine cost, and this should allow compensation (TOIL or overtime) for the vet and nurse. Particularly if one's other option is to send the case to an OOH provider who will charge the client a LOT more than you, and produce NO practice income.

We also get paid extra per late-night check on animals, again factored into the hospitalisation cost.

Looking at the SPVS figures I get paid about average overall, but calculating it as a basic + extras seems fair to me. At the end of the day I am an employee, and expect a fair deal, and this is no reflection on my 'commitment' to the practice/profession, Martin.

Re: Working after hours

Rob Reid — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:22:13 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Meanwhile I'll just go and lick the road clean and crawl back to work with three broken legs[/quote]

Just make sure you stick a vid of that on You Tube. I'm sure that will give the yoof something to look up to !

Re: Working after hours

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:46:16 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]Bit of a bold statement - does this refer to just staff you employ or nurses/new grads in general? [/quote] Well clearly I can only go on my experience but reading between the lines on other threads with a similar topic, while there are clearly admirable exceptions to every rule there does tend to be a trend 'with the yoof of today'! Maybe its just because I'm such a lousy employer that they can't be bothered. Meanwhile I'll just go and lick the road clean and crawl back to work with three broken legs.

Re: Working after hours

janine redman — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:44:48 GMT

Our practice has an out of hours surgery rate which is slightly more than normal operating charges which are charged per unit of time. We do our own ooh. The veterinary surgeons get a percentage of each out of hours call out fee once the client has settled their account . The nurses get paid overtime depending on hours worked and there is an option of an additional critical care fee which is used if the nurse has to stay up all night and therefore cannot work the following day. Weekend cover would be normal rates plus any additional nurse care.

Re: Working after hours

Jo Cobbett — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:31:31 GMT

[quote user="Luciano Nebiante"]

1- Do you charge and OOH fee for all the work you have done after closing time? [/quote]

We would charge the nurses overtime fee, but no other OOH fee

[quote user="Luciano Nebiante"]

2- If you are an emploee, do you get a reward for it, in terms of time off or money?

[/quote]

No, I don't get anything extra for overtime. If I was on call I would happily stay over to sort this out, and in many cases even if not on call I might end up doing it too (we run our OOH between two branches, so if the OOH vet was at the other branch and I didn't think the case would take all night I'd probably do it myself rather than call them over.)

I like surgery and enjoy a good ex-lap, so unless I had any pressing engagements that evening (and I very rarely book anything for weekday evenings as I know there's a chance I won't make it!) I'd be quite keen to stay on.

(3 years graduated, probably still classed as 'yoof of today', but I love my job (most of the time!) and would think of myself as committed and conscientious despite my tender years!)

Care over the weekend would be charged at normal daily hospitalisation rates, with the OOH vet looking after inpatients, and if the nurse had to be called in, then their overtime would be charged again.

Re: Working after hours

Rob Reid — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:20:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Any additional overtime for nurses would also be charged to the client. I could have paid one of the nurses or the new graduate to stay but a) they don't have the work ethic[/quote]

Bit of a bold statement - does this refer to just staff you employ or nurses/new grads in general? If it's the latter, I am sure there are a lot of new grads (and indeed employers of new grads) who will disagree with this. Indeed my experience of working with new grads if that these guys often have a better work ethic than some of the 'more senior' vets out there.

I could say the same about a lot of the nurses I work with as well who frequently go beyond the call of duty....

Re: Working after hours

MeeraM — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:13:30 GMT

I'm a locum so it varies from practice to practice.

Those that cover their own OOH - if the animal appeared in normal working hours (even if only 5mins before close of play), there would be no OOH fee and the surgery would get charged at normal rates. The on-call vet would then be responsible for monitoring through the night.

Most of the practices I've worked for that don't cover their own OOH but would have stable in-patients to check late-on - would depend on the case as to whether surgery done there or sent to the OOH provider. If surgery done on-site, it would get charged at the standard rate and the vet doing the surgery wouldn't get paid any extra or get any time off in lieu for doing so. One example - a cat that ate a chicken bone, presented at 6.30pm (last consult at 6.45pm and "close" at 7pm). Two vets consulting (colleague who was doing in-patient checks that evening, and me). I examined it, admitted it, took x-rays whilst my colleague finished the consults, then my colleague did the surgery. I stayed because a/ I wanted to scrub in for experience and b/ would have felt awful swanning off for the evening knowing that my colleague and the nurse who was on that evening would be staying late (plus an extra pair of hands could make the job easier and perhaps an earlier finish for all). We left the building at 10pm. Colleague bought me a bottle of wine so I got rewarded!! However, if an unstable case had presented at that time in the evening, we would have sent it to the OOH provider - or at least strongly recommended the OOH provider for close monitoring and management.