What's the appeal of BVA?

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 17:20:28 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]So, in order to keep me they've given me special privileges[/quote]

Do enlarge.

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 15:36:07 GMT

Haha! I'll forgive a great deal for a good Groucho reference Anyway, point taken. Keep poking, Socrates!

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

J G Wray — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 15:24:12 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Ok, are you listed in their membership lists somewhere?[/quote]

Yup, kind of. I feel a Groucho moment

"..I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER.."

So, in order to keep me they've given me special privileges

JGW

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 08:44:00 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

May I ask you a question, JGW?

Are you a member of BVA?

"Yes" or "no" will suffice.

[/quote]

The answer, accurately, is "sort of". Are you?

JGW[/quote]

Ok, are you listed in their membership lists somewhere?

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

James Laidlaw — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 08:13:34 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

"Yes" or "no" will suffice.

[/quote] Apparently it won't.

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

J G Wray — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 07:32:48 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

May I ask you a question, JGW?

Are you a member of BVA?

"Yes" or "no" will suffice.

[/quote]

The answer, accurately, is "sort of". Are you?

JGW

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 00:30:20 GMT

May I ask you a question, JGW?

Are you a member of BVA?

"Yes" or "no" will suffice.

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

J G Wray — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 22:58:26 GMT

[quote user="Colin Thomson"]The forums in particular seem to have been a disaster. Their regional structure with BVA reps trying to elicit responses to issues of policy through them mean that the most important/contentious issues are discussed in the smallest caucus. It just hasn't worked - as you say if there's 3 or 4 postings a month they've done well - certainly that's the case in Yorkshire. The software was particularly bad to begin with and isn't much better now. I'm getting a bit embarrassed for them when I hear another officer saying what a success the community platform is. Its clearly failing, and with large community sites like this one available I can't see how it can now be made to work - nobody has a compelling reason to use it.[/quote]

The BVA forum platform, software, is the same as vetsurgeon.org.

It's shortcomings were elucidated early on. No one at BVA listened and no one has done much about it. The staffer running the forum refers back to....Mr Hargreaves.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

The relationship of BVA to MAFF then DEFRA is one of submissive sycophancy. The failure to do anything other than acquiesce to faceless bureaucrats on everything from LVI terms and conditions through lab closures/reorganisation to centralisation/rationalisation of abattoir facilities (you can draw a straight line from that one to the 500+ mile pig excursions that fuelled the FMD outbreak before last).

BVA's silence (sorry solidarity with its colleagues in government service) over the manifestly shambolic response to the most recent FMD outbreaks was IMO a disgrace. Similarly, while I haven't any obvious answers to the Badger/TB question, I am not at all convinced by the "science" behind the proposed culls and I don't think that I am alone within the profession. BVA should be engaging its members and the wider public to provide information about the complexity and seriousness of the situation, not merely acting as unpaid PR champions for their friends in one of the least effective departments of government.

[/quote]

A couple of weeks ago, Mr Padgett delivered a Webinar to 320 members ( allegedly) on the "science" behind TB. It was, sort of.

I thought it was interesting and BCVA's pigeon, not BVA's.

As for the sycophancy bit, well there BVA have got a bit of a problem. They like being told they're influential. It's like being stroked and therefore they sought out more even when stiffed by Defra/AHVLA over LVI remuneration . They like approbation from Defra.

It is bonkers and all becomes even more inexplicable when BVA then went on to say they couldn't command a response from their membership over this. Apparently they have no real remit from their members?!?!?

JGW

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 17:52:24 GMT

Lorna The answer to that is DEFINITELY YES

Wynne

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 17:30:19 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

It's obvious, all we need to do is to send for the Right Honourable () Tony Blair to sort out TB.

[/quote]

Excellent idea... it has the additional advantage that his fee will do much to convince the general public that vets really aren't as extortionate as they thought!

[/quote]

P.S. do politicians in this context count as Passing Tramps?

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 17:29:16 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

It's obvious, all we need to do is to send for the Right Honourable () Tony Blair to sort out TB.

[/quote]

Excellent idea... it has the additional advantage that his fee will do much to convince the general public that vets really aren't as extortionate as they thought!

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 17:24:17 GMT

Evelyn I'm going to sue you for cracking my ribs laughing

Wynne

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:48:29 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]So yes, I think a badger cull will reduce bovine TB but if we're going to eradicate it again spreading sewage sludge on farm land will have tobe totally banned The government won't do that due to expense of incineration-although I think it would be cheaper for the taxpayer than the on-going cost of bTB[/quote]

It's obvious, all we need to do is to send for the Right Honourable () Tony Blair to sort out TB.

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 15:45:57 GMT

PS By we I mean the veterinary profession-even I wasn't qualified that long ago

Wynne

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 14:38:27 GMT

Mariette 2 points

Firstly-yes there wasn't much parking near the Maritime Museum, but there's also no parking at BSAVA and that doesn't seem to affect attendance-so there has to be another reason why people don't go to BVA

Secondly bovine TB There's no doubt that bTB also affects badgers, so a cull will lessen cattle infections So far I'm with the establishment Where I fall out with them is I don't think badgers are the entire problem We got rid of bTB during the 1950s-without a badger cull-because no one then knew that badgers could be affected-it was regarded as purely a human/cattle problem-and was made notifiable-not for the sake of the cattle-or the farmers-but to lessen human infections with TB-the same reason milk pasteurisation was introduced

I have 2 theories-my theories so could be wrong-why we eradicated TB during the 1950s without a badger cull, but can't do so now

The first is TB went away when the national dairy herd changed from Shorthorn to Friesian, and came back when it turned from Friesian to Holstein Was the Friesian abnormally resistant to TB and both Shorthorn and Holstein more susceptible?

My second theory is that another source of cattle infections is from humans-as a result of using sewage sludge as fertiliser-not something that was done in the 1950s-but widespread now I've mentioned this toDEFRA veterinarians in the past-and been given the "party line" of differing strains My reply has alwat been "balderdash" If human and cattle strains were so different then there is absolutely noscientific justification on wasting taxpayers money eradicating TB in the 1st place The excuse that it is demanded by the EU isn't valid-because we had an eradication policy long before we entered the EU-introduced to protect human health My other observation would be that if cross infection between species was impossible then milk pasteurisation should also be stopped They haven't the courage to do that because they're scared human cases will escalate because they know that it's really the same disease I know the next establishment reply will be to say how few human cases are bTB My reply would be to ask how many slaughtered reactors who have no visible lesions actually cross-reacted on the tuberculin test as a result of exposure to human strains from sewage

So yes, I think a badger cull will reduce bovine TB but if we're going to eradicate it again spreading sewage sludge on farm land will have tobe totally banned The government won't do that due to expense of incineration-although I think it would be cheaper for the taxpayer than the on-going cost of bTB

Wynne

PS I've probably now succeeded in annoying both the establishment and the anti-establishment

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 08:03:51 GMT

" Similarly, while I haven't any obvious answers to the Badger/TB question, I am not at all convinced by the "science" behind the proposed culls and I don't think that I am alone within the profession. BVA should be engaging its members and the wider public to provide information about the complexity and seriousness of the situation, not merely acting as unpaid PR champions for their friends in one of the least effective departments of government."

Thanks Malcolm. When I first came to UK and read my way into the TB problem I couldn't believe that vets would all think all TB came from badgers and culling badgers would solve the TB problem, while testing methods were so poorly organised and controlled and cattle was moving in and out of markets and all over the country on their 60 days pre movement licenses, and 4 year testing parishes laid scattered amongst 1 year testing ones, etc etc. BUT, BVA, BCVA etc all followed the badger cull and badger source of TB and no vets dared to (?) speak a different story in meetings.

I as a member of BVA,and BCVA I always feel uncomfortable and irritated when they speak out in the name of the vet profession enthousiastically promoting and supporting the badger cull policies, and to the public showing that we as vets are not committed to all animals, only to the paying ones.

Mariette

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 11:09:14 GMT

[quote user="Colin Thomson"]And if the BVA is the external facing voice of the profession[/quote]

A good summary of the problem and one with which I very largely agree. This sentence of yours is key - the "if" in particular. Not only is it ludicrous to believe that the profession could or indeed should have one voice, history shows that BVA is ineffective at being it or using it.

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Colin Thomson — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 09:19:42 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]We've been here before, but you're confusing the political with the important. The BVA is a membership organisation which should represent the views of its members where required. However, the large part of BVA is apathetic and mainly join/keep their membership due to some vague feeling that its a Good Thing and they get Vet Rec/IP every week/month (though for how long VR continues in its current weekly paper form remains to be seen). In this arena, the right people with sufficient drive can seize the agenda, which the LA lobby has done for as long as I can remember.[/quote]

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you're saying in some respects that's only part of the answer. Some of the large animal topics are important as well as political - eg bovine TB - there isn't another animal issue which is costing the country £100m annually (to the exchequer - before the cost to the industry). And if the BVA is the external facing voice of the profession,(which is the agreed position between BVA and its divisions) then in some respects it has to respond to what is of interest to the wider community - it can't be the sole setter of the agenda. But I think they are doing a better job than they were a few years ago. When the cat toxoplasmosis thing raised it head a few weeks ago, BVA had a response out within a few hours. And they've tried to bring issues like ritual slaughter to the fore again Perhaps that's gone nowhere, but at least they're raising issues instead of just responding, which again I think is an improvement over the past. (I know ritual slaughter is a LA issue, but we don't kill dogs & cats to eat).

[quote user="David Mills"]In part, all this is due to the bloated nature of Council especially with new regional representatives who attend with 'feedback from the forums': in reality 3-4 people with a particular gripe will have that aired at Council meetings, thereby allowing a huge bias to be present with regional reps pushing their own agenda. Further, the open nature of Council means that misinformed opinion is given weight. I was YVN rep for a while and at the meetings I attended Fish Society representative was sounding off on LA issues and SA issues, despite having done neither for 20 years. This is no way to run an organisation, and is symptomatic of BVA - it has completely lost sight of what its members want, and lost relevance.[/quote]

One of the good thing that came from the council reorganisation is the fish man is no longer on it. They have thinned out some of the smaller vested interests from the broader meeting place.

I don't want to sound like I'm supporting the BVA too much here though. I'd agree with most of your criticisms, as well as many of those Jonathan highlighted above regarding their finances and how they're trying to get that sorted. The forums in particular seem to have been a disaster. Their regional structure with BVA reps trying to elicit responses to issues of policy through them mean that the most important/contentious issues are discussed in the smallest caucus. It just hasn't worked - as you say if there's 3 or 4 postings a month they've done well - certainly that's the case in Yorkshire. The software was particularly bad to begin with and isn't much better now. I'm getting a bit embarrassed for them when I hear another officer saying what a success the community platform is. Its clearly failing, and with large community sites like this one available I can't see how it can now be made to work - nobody has a compelling reason to use it.

Colin

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

mariette asselbergs — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:54:12 GMT

I will again ask How many of you who are criticising BVA were at Liverpool-and if not- why not? It's easy to criticise-but this criticism is patently unjust

Wynne

I paid and went to Liverpool, with the practiucew van, which then could not park anywhere in the multistory carparks. The police only found me a place on the street with a max limit of 2 hours. I presented the problem at the BVA congress desk without any solution. So I left back home without attending.

Mariette

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

David Mills — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 11:15:23 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]You have a finite amount of resources. You have been challenged by the changes in your advertising revenues. You have some expensive white elephants like VetTV. You have a grip on the hierarchy from male, pale, stale types with LA bias. What are the chances of resources being re allocated away, removed from the established LA politicking?[/quote]

JGW - you do have a real bee in your bonnet about this. I recall a similar posts from yourself. Some of the LA issues (dare I say it) are actually a lot more important to us as a country than the SA issues. The BVA might not have got large animal vets the remuneration they want for TB testing but how bad might things be without them?

The resources should be directed where there is greatest need, not in some arbitrary ratio. What we need representing us as a profession are willing participants. We shouldn't force women onto these committees if they don't want to be there.

Our small profession would be a lot stronger if we pulled together and tried to work more cohesively. I'm not sure driving man/woman, LA/SA wedges into things helps in any way. It is by providing a united front we are collectively a lot stronger - whoever it is we are dealing with. Fundamentally the issues are the same.

[/quote]

We've been here before, but you're confusing the political with the important. The BVA is a membership organisation which should represent the views of its members where required. However, the large part of BVA is apathetic and mainly join/keep their membership due to some vague feeling that its a Good Thing and they get Vet Rec/IP every week/month (though for how long VR continues in its current weekly paper form remains to be seen). In this arena, the right people with sufficient drive can seize the agenda, which the LA lobby has done for as long as I can remember. They then conflate their own interests - minority member interests, remember - with importance via a healthy dose of 'countrwide' 'for the good of the nation's animals' etc. and like to think they can play politics 'at the high table'. It is egotistical, and crusade-like. Who out of the members would support various expenses-paid trips abroad for the President to attend at best tangental conferences on animal welfare? Is that in the members' best interests? What the hell is the VDC in existence for?

The converse of this, as Mr Woodhouse alludes to, is that SA politics and member interests are rather ore mundane. They don't have the blockbuster appeal of Westminster, and, frankly, are completely out of the comfort zone of the powers that be. Much of the BVA stuff on SA issues smacks of tokenism.

In part, all this is due to the bloated nature of Council especially with new regional representatives who attend with 'feedback from the forums': in reality 3-4 people with a particular gripe will have that aired at Council meetings, thereby allowing a huge bias to be present with regional reps pushing their own agenda. Further, the open nature of Council means that misinformed opinion is given weight. I was YVN rep for a while and at the meetings I attended Fish Society representative was sounding off on LA issues and SA issues, despite having done neither for 20 years. This is no way to run an organisation, and is symptomatic of BVA - it has completely lost sight of what its members want, and lost relevance.

By the by, anyone who stays in simply for VR and IP I would encourage to join RCVS Trust instead - you can access VR/IP online along with a huge number of other titles at much, much less cost.

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:05:17 GMT

Michealand I have had differences of opinion in the past-but this time I'm 100% with him Our profession is too small for further fragmentation

Wynne

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

James Laidlaw — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 08:13:36 GMT

Damn well said for 1.30am Michael!

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 01:26:12 GMT

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Sally Burnell — Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:11:47 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

and gals

Wynne

[/quote]

Touché!

Re: What's the appeal of BVA?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:02:10 GMT

and gals

Wynne