Foreign microchip - no documents?

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:05:52 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Fortunately most of the imported puppies we see are from Ireland. How the heck do these puppies come in?

[/quote]

From the Defra website: "As both the Republic of Ireland and the UK have had no indigenous rabies for many decades, compliance checks on pets travelling between the two countries will not be applied"

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

James Laidlaw — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 15:03:49 GMT

It also highlights how potentially something completely false can easily get around the "rules"... Anyone watch panorama on the NHS and European Health Insurance Cards last night? If the dog was advertised younger and now is suddenly old enough for the passport it still sounds dodgy to me!!! Kudos to the OP for sticking it out and getting through to someone at TS - that can be difficult.

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 14:19:54 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Come on, it's not just me, surely....

<Mwwwwahahahahahaha!!!!! I vant to suck your blood. Come to my veterinary chamber at midnight>

[/quote] Are you not getting confused with Romania (Transylvania) here JHL?

On a serious note, if the originally suspected scenario was correct, is there a legal obligation on us to report this to 'the authorities' and can we be held accountable if we do not?

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 14:19:12 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

(That said it would require contacting the Hungarian veterinary chamber.)

[/quote]

Come on, it's not just me, surely....

<Mwwwwahahahahahaha!!!!! I vant to suck your blood. Come to my veterinary chamber at midnight>

(instead of a 'getting my coat' smiley)

Good outcome this, and an excellent illustration of why it's generally better to front up and get the thing out into the open, rather than turning a blind eye: the new owners are almost certainly better off for the intervention. Well stuck-to, Rebecca.

[/quote]

Transylvania is in Romania these days, courtesy of the First World War. :p

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

james herriot lied — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:56:05 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

(That said it would require contacting the Hungarian veterinary chamber.)

[/quote]

Come on, it's not just me, surely....

<Mwwwwahahahahahaha!!!!! I vant to suck your blood. Come to my veterinary chamber at midnight>

(instead of a 'getting my coat' smiley)

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Rebecca MacMillan — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:38:11 GMT

Someone came and looked at the passport today and it all looks legitimate. Big relief for the puppy's owners! Trading standards are still going to go and talk to the seller, as the puppy is older than they advertised it at and to check that the other puppy has a passport too. They are also going to stress the importance of supllying owners with relevant paperwork too!

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:15:56 GMT

Lord knows why - best check the dates on them :)

Tip: Hungary doesn't require official veterinarians to stamp the passport; every vet in practice has an individually numbered stamp they use to stamp any official or legal documents. If you want to confirm a vet has stamped a passport, the number on the stamp can be traced to the vet in question. (That said it would require contacting the Hungarian veterinary chamber.)

Cheers,
Mark

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Rebecca MacMillan — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 19:33:34 GMT

Update! The client went to see the seller again today who gave them a hungarian passport! They've brought the passport in to me and trading standards are going to come and have a look at it tomorrow. They might also ring the vet in Hungary to confirm the treatment given. It looks pretty good to me but they're the experts! The pup is slightly older than we thought at 15-16 weeks of age, and has had rabies, worming, defleaing and primary vaccs by the looks of things. We can't fathom why the seller didn't hand over the passport in the first place though? Unless its because he didn't want them to know the pup was imported maybe. Luckily the clients have been really good so far, despite what must be a fairly stressful time for them. Fingers crossed, but hopefully it's going to be ok!

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Utlendigur — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 19:23:59 GMT

Had a quick look on Doglost and there are 3 pups recently stolen from around the country

http://www.doglost.co.uk/dog_blog.php?dogId=40631

http://www.doglost.co.uk/dog_blog.php?dogId=40999

http://www.doglost.co.uk/dog_blog.php?dogId=41882

Plus two 5wk old pug pups stolen in May

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:06:18 GMT

Hi Rebecca - is this pug puppy a fawn or black? I know of two stolen pups from the north east in the last couple of weeks, one black and one fawn. Obviously they wouldn't have been chipped in Hungary but it makes you wonder if someone chipped this pup with an imported chip. Both were bitches of around 10-14 weeks.

What a nightmare, why on earth do owners buy pups from men in carparks?

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

James Laidlaw — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 17:38:13 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]The rabies vaccine data sheets state 3 calendar months for earliest vaccine,[/quote]

This is incorrect. They say from 3 months, not 3 calendar months. In France they use 3 calendar months and old PETS rules used terminology for re-entry qualification period post blood test. Easy to get confused. Occasionally need to be precise.

See previous thread on this subject

OP - Contact VDS and check how they will want you to keep records of all this. If anything goes sideways, they are the only ones you can rely on.

JGW

[/quote]

Well on speaking to Intervet re: Nobivac I was told 3 calendar months. What do you interpret 3 months to be otherwise, it isn't a accurate precise definition of time and not exactly equal to 12 weeks. DEFRA says to go by datasheet. Nobivac (which we use) MSD say 3 calendar months, so I use that. Different companies may have different times, which comes up in the previous thread, which I assume you haven't actually read, because most people agree that if datasheet says three months you must use this, which is what DEFRA advise.

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

James Laidlaw — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:18:44 GMT

[quote user="Rebecca Benge"]I just didn't know what to tell the owner about what may or may not happen with all of this.[/quote]

Meant to reply to this too - but just be honest with them. It's up to them to make the best of a bad situation - and while it's easy to feel sorry for people in this situation, remember you didn't put them there! If you aren't completely honest with them about the risk and consequences, not just of quarantine and socialisation, but of imported diseases and things like rabies - far worse than quaratine! - it's more likely to backfire on you now that you're involved to a degree.

One that I saw was quarantined, but the owner was prepared for that after we had discussed everything.

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

James Laidlaw — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:13:16 GMT

Although there is space for clinical exams and further info in the passport - it's not compulsory to have these sections filled in. Same with tick treatment and standard/core vaccines other than rabies etc. Personally I wouldn't put this info into a passport, but into the clinical notes - which I assume are completely absent too!!!

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:54:52 GMT

I was not going to risk the wrath of the many good, professional vets in practice in Ireland but I have seen some real 'horrors' both patient and paperwork!

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:41:12 GMT

Puppy farmers whatever their nationality-aaaarghhhh

Wynne

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:18:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Fortunately most of the imported puppies we see are from Ireland. They often have the most inadequate paperwork, often from veterinary practices!

[/quote]

I saw a puppy from Ireland a couple of weeks ago, full passport and rabies vacc plus normal vaccs.... and a 4/6 right sided systolic heart murmur. Nothing in the passport about that, perhaps those types of murmurs are insignificant over there?

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

James Laidlaw — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:51:13 GMT

Guess it's that thing where if something looks to cheap to be true, it probably is. Legally perhaps they could have some claim against costs with the seller, but that's up to them...

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Rebecca MacMillan — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:42:20 GMT

Thanks for all your responses!

I am more than happy to pass the buck on this one! It might all be nothing, as others have said - it could just be a foreign brand of microchip or something, but I'd hate to just ignore it....

Trading standards have been in touch with animal health and have also spoken to me again today. They are going to contact the client to get some more information from her and will probably pop in tomorrow to visit me and collect paperwork if the owners get hold of any from the seller today.

I just didn't know what to tell the owner about what may or may not happen with all of this. Trading standards have suggested to me that quarantine may be a possible outcome - which the new owners would have to pay for. I'm hoping it is all legitimate and this isn't required, as surely 6 months quarantine on such a young dog is going to ruin its development/socialisation? (as well as being costly for the client who was probably trying to save a bit of money by buying this non KC registered, internet advertised, no parents available for viewing, pup)

(p.s sorry if this subject has already been covered, I tried to do a quick search this AM but time was tight before work, and my initial look through multiple pages of search results wasn't yielding the right info!)

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:42:05 GMT

Fortunately most of the imported puppies we see are from Ireland. They often have the most inadequate paperwork, often from veterinary practices!

How the heck do these puppies come in? Clearly removing the six month wait has opened a door to a new generation of puppy farm - this time even more unregulated!

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Lynne Vickers — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:21:47 GMT

It would be worth contacting Trading Standards, they will investigate and take action if they think the dog has been illegally imported, although I am not sure what this action consists of.

We are seeing a lot of dogs coming in from Eastern Europe nowadays, particularly Romania and Hungary and clients are wanting to register foreign chips on the UK databases.

Most of these are legitimate and have pet passports, which we request a copy of before registering as a foreign chip. However there are some that have 'lost' the paperwork and in these cases we would contact the database within the country where the microchip has been sold to, quite often there are no records of registered keeper or in some instances even the chip number on the foreign database.

In these situations we register the pet so that there is a record of the pet and keeper within the UK. This may also help trading standards if there is a suspicion of illegal importation, but this would depend on if the keeper has retained the information of where they acquired the dog from.

I am still amazed by how many people buy animals from websites without knowing any background information on them or even taking details of the person they bought the pet from!

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

J G Wray — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:16:52 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]The rabies vaccine data sheets state 3 calendar months for earliest vaccine,[/quote]

See previous thread on this subject

OP - Contact VDS and check how they will want you to keep records of all this. If anything goes sideways, they are the only ones you can rely on.

JGW

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:41:39 GMT

If you are illegally importing a puppy, why microchip it? If it was imported from abroad and chipped I'd guess there is some (?faked) paperwork somewhere. But as above, there are other people who are paid to investigate and take action on such matters

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Sylvia Wilson — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:45:00 GMT

As an ex-ministry vet I can confidently agree that you are best to pass the problem to AHVLA as soon as possible. It is highly likely that the puppy will have to go into quarantine, at least until its status is resolved.

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:13:41 GMT

I agree with those whosay that passing the buck was the right thing to do-in fact the only thing-it's a legal problem so let the Government agencies sort it out

Wynne

Re: Foreign microchip - no documents?

Laurence Webb — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:10:16 GMT

There is a minimum 3 week gap betwen rabies vaccination and importation. Assuming the puppy is now 12 weeks then it would have been 9wks or younger when vaccinated against rabies, making it an illegal import anyway.

If it was imported the stated the age is wrong, it was vaccinated too young or someone has falisified the passport (if one even exists). My guess would be that the dog was stolen and imported illegally - why microchip it otherwise.

If I were the seller I'd probably have just lied and said that he (or the breeder) had used a microchip brought abroad and crossed my fingers that no-one questioned it.

Anyway, you've done the right thing in passing the problem onto someone whose responsibility it is. It would be interesting to hear what the end result is