Re: Cat Spays

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 11:05:30 GMT

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"] I'm horrified obviously and now doubting myself but I can picture the spay in my head and nothing odd. Anyone seen something similar? [/quote] Firstly, if you're confident with your technique and you are certain you ligated above the ovary then stop fretting, you've done your job. Not seen anything similar, I would question whether the owner is identifying the signs of oestrus correctly and its not some behavioural issue. I would wait and see, at least she can't get pregnant! Don't rule out the possibility of a third ovary, I've seen a dog with 3 testes before now.

Re: Cat Spays

Anthony Todd — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 10:24:04 GMT

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]Anyone seen something similar? [/quote]

Shouldn't she stay in season until mated? Unless mated, she'll have been around season for 31/2 years so I'd wait.

We used to try the dreaded Ovarid and often they didn't come back [or on heat if they did....]

Re: Cat Spays

Kirsten Simpson — Fri, 04 Oct 2013 09:37:04 GMT

Digging through old topics I know!

Spayed a 4 year old cat 2 weeks ago just at the end of her first season of the year (she tends to cycle as the days get shorter every 2-3 weeks for 5 days). Uterus and ovaries were very obvious, double ligated ovaries as very vascular and transfixed the cervix as was quite oedematous looking. All ok. Then the owner rings on Tuesday this week saying she's coming back into season. Cue panic with me. I'm utterly convinced I've removed the whole ovary. I remember this as I was showing the vet student how obvious it all was in her and showed her the signs of being in season on the ovaries! A quick paper and search has revealed nothing obvious apart from people saying "Your vet is rubbish, they've left an ovary in" etc. I've seen the cat, and discussed this with the owner. Discussed it with the other vets and one advised that maybe with her as spayed in season, hormones at peak and will take longer to go away this stopping the "season" some places advise 2-3 months before blood tests first + then exlap. I'm horrified obviously and now doubting myself but I can picture the spay in my head and nothing odd. Anyone seen something similar?

Re: Cat Spays

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 08:50:06 GMT

Penalties of me learning midline. Red star me, somebody!

Re: Cat Spays

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 00:36:42 GMT

Transversus abdominis. But it does rather form a unit at this site with the internal oblique, to all intents and purposes a single thick layer unless you look very closely.

Re: Cat Spays

Glenn Hodgson — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 22:02:27 GMT

Transverse :-)

Re: Cat Spays

Busybee — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:19:09 GMT

Is it not the transverse (?transversus) muscle? Rectus abdominus is along midline.

Re: Cat Spays

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:13:17 GMT

Rectus abdominis, as I recall. (yes, I had to think about it for a minute, it's not something I routinely mention!)

Re: Cat Spays

john O DWYER — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:04:21 GMT

i have been doing flank speys for 40 years and have been incising 2 layers of muscle internal/external abd obliques what is the name of the third muscle?

Re: Cat Spays

patrick murphy — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 11:59:42 GMT

and this with the CPL running their perpubertal neutering campaign

Re: Cat Spays

Anthony Dennison — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:15:40 GMT

Also, does the 'we do not feel the current trend' part of that information sheet verge on slandering (possibly bit too strong a word I know) other vets, something the RCVS doesn't like very much?

Re: Cat Spays

Julie Innes — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:52:51 GMT

I do my cat spays flank, just because that's the way I've always done them . I do offer orientals/ pedigrees owners the option of midline, because of the possibility of discolouration of the hair at the site of regrowth, so i do do some midline, but feel more comfortable with flank.

I usually spay at 5-6mths, but I have a breeder client who likes them spayed before homing, so I sometimes do 15/16wk old kittens, and midline (ragdolls), which I do find a bit fiddly, but ok.

I will spay cats in season, because they come in so frequently that owner's do often find it frustrating trying to book them in. Never really had any problems. I don't do bitches in season, if at all possible, as I worry about bleeding (and I'm sure I read somewhere that the oestrogen levels reduce clotting times??). Bigger blood vessels than a cat, and usually less bleeding from surrounding tissue in cats, as well as longer intervals between seasons make it more practical to put it off in a bitch. I've spayed a few (early) pregnant cats, where a previous vet has refused to spay while in season...

Re: Cat Spays

Anthony Dennison — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 15:05:09 GMT

I spent 4 weeks in India last year as a student doing flank bitch spays. After graduating this year and starting at a practice where it's done midline, I've found its much easier to access the ovaries with a flank approach. There was a paper written about the Indian technique that was in the Vet Record a few weeks ago, we found that in comparison to previous studies done in the UK on midline spays operating times were shorter, incisions much smaller and altough not directly comparable to the midline technique, post-op pain was also minimal.

Title of the paper is 'Description and evaluation of a right flank, mini-laparotomy approach to canine ovariohysterectomy' if anyone's interested.

On the subject of cat spays, I've done young spays both midline and flank, and find the younger they are, it's easier to do midline.

Re: Cat Spays

Anthony Todd — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:43:02 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Probably because a/ there's a lot more muscle to get through in a bitch and b/ the ovarian ligaments are a lot tighter.[/quote]

Never done any flank myself but one of the best surgeons I know [TY] always did them flank and says you split the muscles so they aren't a factor and flank would be nearer the ovaries in most bitches, particularly the deep bodied ones, anyway.

Funny how familiarity becomes accepted practice and the preferred method.

Re: Cat Spays

Rebecca Marchewka — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:30:30 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Off topic but does anyone do flank spays in bitches?[/quote]

Yes I always do bitch spays flank. This is the way I was taught to do them and in my hands this is definately the preferable option. I ddi spend a year in a practice where I did midline bitch spays but found it more awkward than flank.

Re: Cat Spays

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:41:46 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

Begs the question why do we spay most bitches midline and most cats flank, is it just convention or are their valid technical reason for doing it this way,

[/quote]

Probably because a/ there's a lot more muscle to get through in a bitch and b/ the ovarian ligaments are a lot tighter.

Re: Cat Spays

Clive Ansell — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:58:45 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Begs the question why do we spay most bitches midline and most cats flank, is it just convention or are their valid technical reason for doing it this way,

[/quote]

Tradition? one reason often cited for not doing midline cat speys is they are more prone to suture reactions in the midline, I prefer Vicryl and almost never have any problems.

I did some flank bitch speys as a student under the guidance of a really good mentor at the RSPCA. He was of the opinion that one should try different ways and alternative approaches, similarly he had me doing open and closed technique, and scrotal ablations for dog castrations, as well as both flank and midline cat speys.

Re: Cat Spays

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:32:01 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]Off topic but does anyone do flank spays in bitches?[/quote] My very first job, a sole charge locum, 2 days qualified, I walked in as the vet walked out, threw me the keys and said. 'there's 2 bitch spays this morning, I'd like them done flank'. Notwithstanding all the thoughts that immediately come to mind regarding his confidence in me, my confidence in my ability and likely experience (you can not imagine something like that happening today), mutual confidence was justified, although I'd probably only done a couple of bitch spays and those were midline previously, I just got on with it and it was pretty much the same as spaying a cat - albeit they were miniature Dachshunds not adult Rottweilers. I've not done a routine spay flank since that practice but I have done a couple of caesarians in small bitches flank on the basis that the pups are less likely to interfere with the sutures. Begs the question why do we spay most bitches midline and most cats flank, is it just convention or are their valid technical reason for doing it this way,

Re: Cat Spays

Rajat — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:46:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="David Mills"]The only difference I see in bitch spays is that young ones - about 12 weeks - are fabulously easy. Those who haven't should really try it.[/quote]

Off topic but does anyone do flank spays in bitches?

[/quote]

No never done one flank but I know lots of charities in india do them flank, their average operating time is 12-14 minutes, but they do have 2 people scrubbed in. Had some resistance when the charity I worked with there wanted to do them midline as they have always done them flank and they thought we took too long! But we did compared to their times...but with 1 vet not 2 operating..!

Re: Cat Spays

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:25:34 GMT

The only bitches I chose to spay in season are those that have been mated by accident. Alizin is very expensive and they might as well put the money towards the op. The uterus has more tone but I don't think it is much harder. Personally I ligate cervix before clamping on both a dog and a cat, especially if uterine tone seems high. We do have a small supplement for in season bitches/queens that we use at our discretion (same for obese ones)

Re: Cat Spays

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:24:38 GMT

Malcolm 2 reasons :

1)scared of haemorrhage with in season bitches-maybe they're not as bad as I think,but they're said tobe-and I'm too much of a coward to try-doesn't seem tobe a problem in cats

2) easy to keep bitch in for season, and plenty of time to spay later-if cat stays in it's in season for ages-and comes back in quickly, so timetabling the spay for anoestrus, and fitting it round owners other commitments,and practices other patients is a bit challenging to say the least

Wynne

Re: Cat Spays

Mark Holmes — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:14:24 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

The late Geoff Parkin pointed out, when I was his assistant, that a bitch in season would remain attractive to dogs for a while after spaying, and a dog's penis could easily rupture the ligated vagina. In some areas of that practice, that was an important consideration.

[/quote]

Now thats not something I had considered and would be a problem.

Re: Cat Spays

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:03:45 GMT

Because of the different reproductive cycles, and for various other reasons, it just seems so much easier to put a bitch spay off until anoestrus than it is with a cat.

Re: Cat Spays

Anthony Todd — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:01:16 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]So why can you spay a caesar and milk production doesn't appear to be a problem[/quote]

Dunno, something to do with hormones? I think we got to the point of not spaying 'til 1 month [accurately] after season had finished.

Way before Galastop mind you, but it was an embarrassing nightmare at the time.

Re: Cat Spays

Mark Holmes — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:41:19 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="David Mills"]I thought the only contraindication for bitches in season was possible milk production [/quote]

Yes, some lactate for months!

[/quote]

So why can you spay a caesar and milk production doesn't appear to be a problem, even if they never feed pups. Surely thats what Galastop is for. I'm not aware of having had it fail to work.

Clearly you wouldn't chose to routinely spay a bitch in season and then routinely rely on galastop but in selected cases.... The last one was a neopolitan mastiff which was bleeding all over the very fancy white upholstered house.