Docked Puppy

Re: Docked Puppy

Bob Russell — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:29:42 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Mod's note. Martin, I deleted your post and subsequent replies to it. Not because I took any offence myself, but then I wouldn't; I don't belong to either of the cultural groups being stereotyped!

[/quote] Fair enough, even though clearly someone found it funny as there were several gold stars, I will try and tone down my humour a bit in future.

[/quote]

It was very funny and wonderfully non-PC. I second the not toning the humour down much but it only takes one to take offence!

Re: Docked Puppy

Cat Henstridge — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:35:21 GMT

I saw another one today, a lovely Patterdale Terrier puppy. Admittedly not a bad dock, it was reasonably long, but the owner was devastated she had missed it and felt she had therefore condoned the action. I told her she could report to the RSPCA and she says she will, hurrah!

On the 'off topic' topic. My Mum is a doctor and sits on her local PCT. The issue of NHS funded circumcisions comes up every year ( I'm not sure how we got on this subject one day but we did!) and they always consider removing the funds. However, know if they did the parents of these children would take them to unqualified people to have it performed and there would be far more complications that the NHS would end up paying for, not to mention any bad publicity related to the fact they 'forced' the parents to look elsewhere. So the funding stays.

Re: Docked Puppy

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:33:23 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]there were several gold stars[/quote]

Probably some of them were mine.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I will try and tone down my humour a bit in future.[/quote]

Not too much please! That one was just sailing a tad close to the wind.

Re: Docked Puppy

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:04:13 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Mod's note. Martin, I deleted your post and subsequent replies to it. Not because I took any offence myself, but then I wouldn't; I don't belong to either of the cultural groups being stereotyped!

[/quote] Fair enough, even though clearly someone found it funny as there were several gold stars, I will try and tone down my humour a bit in future.

Re: Docked Puppy

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:38:04 GMT

Mod's note. Martin, I deleted your post and subsequent replies to it. Not because I took any offence myself, but then I wouldn't; I don't belong to either of the cultural groups being stereotyped!

Re: Docked Puppy

Mark Holmes — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:16:37 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Do you suppose, that with docking or circumcision, the pain is temporary, the cutting is forever? I could use that as a footnote. JGW

[/quote]

Re: Docked Puppy

J G Wray — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:41:56 GMT

Do you suppose, that with docking or circumcision, the pain is temporary, the cutting is forever? I could use that as a footnote. JGW

Re: Docked Puppy

Bob Russell — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:49:03 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

[quote user="Rajat"]As for complications of circumcision, how is this for a grim and somewhat disturbing one - not for the fainthearted![/quote]

I'm definitely not faint-hearted, but this is effing horrific!!! Way to ruin my day mate.

[/quote]

but it is good to know that they are 15% less likey to get prostate cancer for their troubles

[/quote]

Trials have suggested a 60% reduction in transmission of HIV from women to men (but not men to women) and is a recommended intervention (done properly!) for HIV prevention (WHO)!

I doubt tail docking will reduce tail injuries by 60% but perhaps will stop injuries by tails by 60%!

Re: Docked Puppy

patrick murphy — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:21:23 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

[quote user="Rajat"]As for complications of circumcision, how is this for a grim and somewhat disturbing one - not for the fainthearted![/quote]

I'm definitely not faint-hearted, but this is effing horrific!!! Way to ruin my day mate.

[/quote]

but it is good to know that they are 15% less likey to get prostate cancer for their troubles

Re: Docked Puppy

Rajat — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:16:56 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

I'm definitely not faint-hearted, but this is effing horrific!!! Way to ruin my day mate.

[/quote]

Sorry matie !

Re: Docked Puppy

Mark Holmes — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:10:55 GMT

oh and a for a bad taste joke.

Seriously I have always considered circumcision of the newborn (and ear studs) assault but this is horrendous.

Re: Docked Puppy

James Laidlaw — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:47:07 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]As for complications of circumcision, how is this for a grim and somewhat disturbing one - not for the fainthearted![/quote]

I'm definitely not faint-hearted, but this is effing horrific!!! Way to ruin my day mate.

Re: Docked Puppy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:27:49 GMT

Rajat very grim

Wynne

Re: Docked Puppy

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:08:31 GMT

Well off topic but many of the religious and cultural features and practices have a basis in hygiene and health which made (makes?) sense. it has been shown that circumcision can significantly reduce the transmission of HIV!

What fun when the topics veer wildly off topic!

Back on topic! I thought docking was a thing of the past around here but I am seeing more and more docked puppies (all pets) with so called correct paperwork. Very sad!

Re: Docked Puppy

Rajat — Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:05:10 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]But rather odd that for thousands of years poor little boys have had their prepuces cut off sans anaesthesia for curious religious or cultural reasons. Quite a painful procedure by all accounts, even in the new-born - but still quite legal in most parts of the world.[/quote]

Bob you're right still legal...but many are now moving to complete regional blockade via dorsal penile block prior to circumcision given evidence of chronic pain in these neonates- it must be pretty da*n painful - no I don't know from personal experience but I can only imagine!

As for curious religious/cultural reasons- it seems in Jewish religion the reason is to reduce the sex drive and in Islam it's tradition rather than a religious requirement though it has become incorporated into the religious tradition.

As for complications of circumcision, how is this for a grim and somewhat disturbing one - not for the fainthearted!

Like you, the ONLY tail injuries I see are in non working dogs. Mainly happy tail types where they wag too vigorously. In fact just amputated my friend's dog's tail today due to it. The only birds he has seen are London pigeons!

Re: Docked Puppy

bob lehner — Sun, 23 Sep 2012 11:16:28 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Maybe I'm just overthinking it, or maybe I just have a daughter and i can't stomach cutting her thumb off.[/quote]

But rather odd that for thousands of years poor little boys have had their prepuces cut off sans anaesthesia for curious religious or cultural reasons. Quite a painful procedure by all accounts, even in the new-born - but still quite legal in most parts of the world.

Anyway - I totally agree that docking dogs is a stupid and pointless exercise - particularly when done for 'fashion' reasons. Like many other posters I have seldom if ever seen a working dog with a tail injury - but loads in over-excitable labs etc.

Apart from all that, one very good reason for not docking dogs is that it leaves one with a very useful handle to grab hold of when taking a temperature or expressing AGs - nothing worse than trying to do these procedures on a jumpy OES or similar, which has been bobbed to the base of the spine.

Re: Docked Puppy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 22 Sep 2012 10:22:22 GMT

I'm 100 % with Rajat

Wynne

Re: Docked Puppy

Rajat — Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:38:06 GMT

Been reading, silently fuming, wondering what it will take for this cruelty to stop?

Ok- for the tail dockers (and I don't really care why you are doing it - just that you are doing it without the provision of analgesia and anaesthesia)

Your newly born child has gangrene in the one hand. It needs amputating. Are you ok it being done without pain relief or anaesthesia? The anaesthetist assures you that the children hardly show ANY signs of pain when done so young..? Ok to go ahead then?

As for those who think no pain is felt at this age...this is wrong. There is plentiful evidence to the contrary in people and animals. Please read!

Lancet study -1995/1997-showed neonates circumcised had higher pain scores at 4 and 6 months when vaccinated compared to uncircumcised. This includes the EMLA group.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2895%2990278-3/abstract

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2896%2910316-0/fulltext

Farm Animals - first link has a wealth of information.

http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalpain/Pages/abstracts.htm

Hyperalgesia in lambs when docked at day 1 then castrated at day 10 - pain was more intensely felt in 1 day old lambs. I only have the abstract now but if I remember reading this right, they spoke about the lack of the descending inhibition pathways being fully developed as one potential contributory cause to increased pain perception.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-2995.2010.00547.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

So that's for you folks who need the 'evidence' that pain can be felt. But seriously, we are meant to be empathetic human beings, who swear an oath to ensure animal welfare is not compromised no matter what

"... I PROMISE ABOVE ALL that I will pursue the work of my profession with uprightness of conduct and that my constant endeavour will be to ensure the welfare of animals committed to my care"

Can anyone stand there and say the practice of tail docking neonatal puppies without anaesthesia and analgesia is in any way shape or form justifiable or concordant with the oath we swore?

As for not reporting 'em - it may not be our 'job' but it is our 'duty'. It isn't about policing, but about making a stand. We may be the only ones who truly know what that poor creature has gone through, who else is gonna speak up if not us...? Oh sorry, let's leave that to the TV vets, (who we will slate in another thread).

I think I better stop now. This makes me too angry!

Re: Docked Puppy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Sep 2012 14:02:18 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]one thing I've wondered though is if my JRT/Fox terrier went down a hole after something, would the tail not prove helpful to pull them out?[/quote]

Yes indeed it would. Which is one reason why (if you do it at all) you should not remove too much of the tail. Those silly little stumps you used to see – still see – on dogs are entirely for fashion. (Why people think ugly little stumps on their pets are attractive I can't imagine, but then why do women think toreador pants are attractive? There's no accounting for it).

Re: Docked Puppy

patrick murphy — Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:41:47 GMT

bit frightened to post I personally like tails and find it unjust that the politicos forced us to put it through. I would not have wanted a big boxer or Rottie breeder on my books putting unffair pressure on me. I think that real welfare is say shipping horses from Eastern Asia to Sicily without proper care, not sniping a puppies tail. one thing I've wondered though is if my JRT/Fox terrier went down a hole after something, would the tail not prove helpful to pull them out? was it really brought in for tax/licensing reasons as I have been told?

Re: Docked Puppy

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:25:18 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

The animal in front of me isn't actually suffering - any more, so my actions at this stage will not make any difference to it, and that is my only concern!

I would tell the owners that the docking has maybe been done illegally and give them all the relevant information, but that is all. If I had concrete evidence (vet's name etc) then I would perhaps ring the police station to report a crime, but no more. The RSPCA and police are there to investigate and then uphold the law, not us!

[/quote]

Stop being sensible - you are spoiling the Tailiban's fun.

Re: Docked Puppy

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 19:40:48 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"] By far the most tail injuries (and most serious, even sometimes fatal) are in cats - but nobody suggest docking kittens.[/quote]

Yep. Have done far more therapeutic amputations in cats than anything else.

Dogs (that I remember): 2 spaniels - 1 working 1 pet; 1 dalmatian; 1 lab - rough shooter's dog who would go into heavy cover. Gave all these tails a fighting chance before resorted to docking.

I don't see the point in docking working breeds that will be out on a grouse moor or big stubble fields most of their lives; however I'm undecided on the argument for part docking working cockers/springers that have their tails going like a helicopter rotors as they're hunting. Aagin - big arable fields and civilised managed coverts - fine....rough shooting dogs diving into blackthorn hedges and bramble patches all day - maybe better part docked? Has anyone seen many undocked spaniels working heavy cover? I just don't see them...they're all docked - would love to know if they do OK with full tails.

Re: Docked Puppy

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:44:58 GMT

I'm somewhat of a dinosaur and I've watched quite a few pups being docked. (Always refused to do it myself, by the way, I'm completely with Lorna there, why should I?) They do react, as much as they can at this young age. Of course the reaction to microchipping at six weeks is stronger, but just because they can be louder and move more, not because they can't feel pain at one or two days old. As others have already posted, the theory about the immature brain is long out of the window. And I've never seen a tail injury in a working dog, only some in overfriendly waggers. But some other serious injuries to the body and the feet, yet no one would suggest to get rid of them...

It's a no never for me and it's been banned for so long in Germany now that we very rarely get asked to do so, even by owners of potential working dogs where it would be legal.People will get used to it, the faster the less vets they find who are prepared to do it.

Re: Docked Puppy

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:11:30 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Not true, this. EMGs of puppies brains have shown full functionality of the pain pathway when born. Which makes sense, really - something painful, move away from it even when you can't see. Try putting them on a hot plate or something.

Re evidence, the only recent paper is a Vet Record study of tail injuries, which can be downloaded for free here:

http://www.cdb.org/News/Veterinary%20Record%20tail%20damage%20report%202010.pdf

Its funny the spin put on this by CDB, check out their website.

Essentially you need to dock 500 tails to prevent 1 injury.

From the discussion (in the paper):

"Work in itself was not a major risk factor."

[/quote] David, you surprise me, of all the regulars on this forum I would have thought that if for nothing else other than to play Devil's Advocate, you would be pro-docking. I forgive you for all you previous transgressions and disagreements we've had on this forum (for now at least)!

Re: Docked Puppy

Rob Loxley — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:08:54 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I don't condemn anyone for not wanting to do it[/quote]

How terribly nice of you, I'm touched by your generosity