Finally - homeopathy explained.

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Rob Loxley — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:32:25 GMT

And two placebo pills are better than one. Ben Goldacre's 1st book has a great chapter on this (am awaiting amazon delivering his latest one...)

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:39:06 GMT

[quote user="Jo Jones"]

So you get a better placebo effect if you've paid more for it!

[/quote]

Placebo works better if you expect it to, for example an injection of water has a biger placebo effect than a sugar pill.

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Jo Cobbett — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:05:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Jo Jones"]They got the members of rugby team to put their hand in icecold water for as long as they could bear it,[/quote]Whimps, cyclists can ride for hours in sub-zero temperatures with frozen hands and no Anadin in sight (OK maybe a bit of EPO but that's not an analgesic). .

[/quote]

I'm a rower and a cox, I'm with you on the freezing hands!

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:03:56 GMT

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Jo Cobbett — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:46:53 GMT

I saw an "experiment" conducted on a TV programme a few years ago (I forget which), which tested the affect of brand vs non brand painkillers. They got the members of rugby team to put their hand in icecold water for as long as they could bear it, having taken either Anadin or a non branded equivalent beforehand. The following day they repeated the process using the other painkiller. The people involved were told which pain releif they were taking. There was a significant (although I don't think this was robustly tested) increase in the length of time when Anadin was used.

The punchline was that they were actually given Anadin both times, even when they thougt it was a non branded product.

So you get a better placebo effect if you've paid more for it!

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

patrick murphy — Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:06:08 GMT

maybe, just maybe there was something very dilute in the ash of the fire that gave you super recovery. should have kept a specimen

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:43:50 GMT

Pleurisy.

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Bob Russell — Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:31:40 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

I agree that the placebo effect is fascinating, there's a very good chapter on it in Bad Science by Ben Goldacre. However I had heard that the reason placebo controlled trials are rarely carried out in human studies is that for the vast majority of conditions it would be unetthical to give no treatment, so the new drug is compared with the existing best treatment.

[/quote]

That was what I understood.

Placebo doesn't seem to work on me, unfortunately :0( A couple of years ago, I developed a cough which stuck for over six weeks and was so bad I was crying from sleep deprivation. It was truly horrible, never felt so ill before or since. Anyway, doctors ran rafts of tests and tried all sorts of treatments, to no effect and with no useful results whatsoever. Finally, in desperation after about 4 or 5 weeks, I tried steroids, certain that they would control whatever inflammation must be there regardless of cause, and at least allow me to get. some. sleep. I was absolutely sure they would work. In fact, I knew they would, because when all else fails, they work symptomatically in my own patients, right? They didn't. I couldn't believe it, the damn things made no difference at all.

And then the whole thing went away all by itself, and I still have no idea what caused it. But even if none of the medications were effective against whatever it was, surely the placebo effect should have ensured at least some lessening of symptoms, given how certain I was in my own mind that they would?

[/quote]

Whooping cough?

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 18:09:10 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] most ilness is psychosomatic[/quote]

Maybe most pain is psychosomatic too

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:05:44 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]And then the whole thing went away all by itself, and I still have no idea what caused it. But even if none of the medications were effective against whatever it was, surely the placebo effect should have ensured at least some lessening of symptoms, given how certain I was in my own mind that they would?[/quote] Isn't that the whole point - most ilness is psychosomatic or if real will get better by itself anyway so the response is attributed to the treatment (the placebo effect). If you really are ill then the placebo won't work. Even though you never made a diagnosis perhaps you really were ill.

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:53:18 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[/quote]

That was what I understood.

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:22:43 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

www.youtube.com/watch

[/quote] Beat me to it!

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Phil Hyde — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:08:00 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

I think its a shame people dismiss the placebo effect so much, if somebody can con me into getting better with a sugar pill. BRILLIANT surely

The big question is how does one make a homeopathic remedy for diabetes? (Not that I have diabetes)

[/quote]

Hmm, no-one dismissing the placebo effects here. That's the whole point, homeopathy is simply a con using the placebo effect.

Homeopaths aren't the only con-men about though.

Recent work by psychologists has shown that the only reason anti-depressants work is that they have side-effects whereas placebos don't. In other words, the antidepressants have no actual anti-depressant action other than placebo effect, BUT the side-effects have an ADDITIONAL placebo effect.

How cool is that?

Phil

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:41:20 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

As I understand things the placebo effect in humans is so strong that placebo trials are no longer used as a definitive method of determining the efficacy of new drugs in trials.

[/quote]

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Mark Holmes — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:35:58 GMT

www.youtube.com/watch

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:31:51 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

When I fractured my radius and dislocated my wrist in a cycling accident I had it plated and they put on a cast on to support the wrist as additional protection. I went back for a post op check after a week and the surgeon first expressed amazement that I'd driven myself there with a manual car and then asked how much longer I wanted to to be signed off for, I said 'are you kidding I went back to work the next day'. He said, 'well how did to operate with a cast on', I replied, 'I took that off the next day as well'. He looked exasperated and wrote, remarkable recovery in the notes. But even before Mrs A drove me to hospital I had to cycle home with one arm and I went in to check on a diabetic dog I had hospitalised with the arm swinging in the breeze, then shortly after the surgery she (just recovering from a hernia op) and I moved an old chest freezer to the tip - sissy injuries like broken arms don't stop cyclists, redoubtable women and dedicated solo vets!

Pah - that's nothing. I once jumped out of an aeroplane - parachute failed to open - free-fell 20,000 feet - landed on a roaring bonfire. Suffered two broken legs, broken arm, dislocated neck, ruptured spleen and both kidneys, third degree burns all over. Anyway, I got up, shook myself down, took a couple of aspirins and went back to work. Put a prolapsed uterus back in a cow the very same afternoon.

[/quote]

Luxury! Why in MY day I used to get up from the pond in the middle of the road, eat half a cup of asphalt for breakfast........

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

bob lehner — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:29:39 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:56:51 GMT

Bob Same here I'm hardly ever ill then got woman flu last Christmas I do very little cycling, but am a rider, and when I went to Pony Club the only respectable excuses for not getting back on after a fall were concussion or a broken leg

Wynne

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:28:41 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] Me - I go one step further, I just don't believe in getting ill in the first place. [/quote]

Just injured.

[/quote] Well yes but even then I go into denial. When I fractured my radius and dislocated my wrist in a cycling accident I had it plated and they put on a cast on to support the wrist as additional protection. I went back for a post op check after a week and the surgeon first expressed amazement that I'd driven myself there with a manual car and then asked how much longer I wanted to to be signed off for, I said 'are you kidding I went back to work the next day'. He said, 'well how did to operate with a cast on', I replied, 'I took that off the next day as well'. He looked exasperated and wrote, remarkable recovery in the notes. But even before Mrs A drove me to hospital I had to cycle home with one arm and I went in to check on a diabetic dog I had hospitalised with the arm swinging in the breeze, then shortly after the surgery she (just recovering from a hernia op) and I moved an old chest freezer to the tip - sissy injuries like broken arms don't stop cyclists, redoubtable women and dedicated solo vets!

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Bob Russell — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:13:38 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I think its a shame people dismiss the placebo effect so much, if somebody can con me into getting better with a sugar pill. BRILLIANT surely[/quote] I wouldn't dismiss it, just denigrate those who believe that 'alternative medicine' is anything else other than placebo effect. If it works on a hypochondriac all the better saves side effects from real medicine and the health service a fortune. Me - I go one step further, I just don't believe in getting ill in the first place.

[/quote]

I cannot get a locum for short periods, full stop so I cannot be ill. Strangely over Christmas or Bank Holidays I have been known to take to my bed with genuine clinical man-flu!

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:11:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] Me - I go one step further, I just don't believe in getting ill in the first place. [/quote]

Just injured.

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:09:09 GMT

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Bob Russell — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:02:21 GMT

I never dismiss the placebo effect! Years ago I was put on anti-depressants - they worked a treat within days. Sadly my next door neighbour is a GP and she happily told me it would take a month or more to kick in. The placebo effect disappeared and I never gave the tablets a month to work!

Please note I am not suggesting anyone stops taking medication without first consulting their GP!

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Mark Holmes — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:14:54 GMT

I think its a shame people dismiss the placebo effect so much, if somebody can con me into getting better with a sugar pill. BRILLIANT surely

The big question is how does one make a homeopathic remedy for diabetes? (Not that I have diabetes)

Re: Finally - homeopathy explained.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:07:02 GMT

[quote user="Phil Hyde"]

Well - how about this for the final nail in that coffin?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528812.300-evolution-could-explain-the-placebo-effect.html

The placebo effect in a Hamster!

[/quote]

But that would mean that homeopathy does work, "switching on the immune system", and it's only the hypothesis of its mechanism that homeopaths have got wrong.