Firework petition

Re: Firework petition

Bob Russell — Thu, 13 Sep 2012 09:46:22 GMT

Chlorpromazine is an established anxiolytic in man so no reason that I can see to suppose Acepromazine is not!

I am not so convinced about this 'immobilising' so fear behaviour cannot be expressed. My preference is to use diazepam but we do have a couple of dogs on ACP.

Re: Firework petition

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 23:57:47 GMT

[quote user="Jo Jones"]

My Patterdale loves fireworks, the moment they start he runs out into the garden and sits there watching them! You can almost hear him going "ooh, ah"!!

[/quote]

My little dog that I referred to earlier is also a Patterdale who loves fireworks. Something about the breed, maybe.

That's what the world needs, more little black dogs!

Re: Firework petition

Utlendigur — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:20:15 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Until owners of that small minority of severely affected dogs wake up and take proper action we will continue having them arrive in late October, whingeing about fireworks![/quote]

Late October? You're lucky - we get them phoning in a panic at 7pm on November 5th

Re: Firework petition

Rajat — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 18:27:56 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

The problem is essentially a philosophical one in my opinion, and has absolutely nothing to do with anaesthetists or otherwise.

We can only just about ascribe general, simple, contemporaneous feelings to fellow humans, and possibly animals but as for this experiences under consciousness-altering drugs: no chance.

[/quote]

I agree with both of you (Hannah W and David M) - I don't think we can say definitively what animals may be experiencing mentally under these drugs, BUT the effect in humans of phenothiazines is drowsiness/tranquilisation and benzodiazepines allow for a similar effect but with the added benefit of amnesia - one can reasonably expect similar effects in dogs - not a bad assumption to make, but it is a bit of guesswork ;) I have used ACP many times now I prefer Alprazolam - fast acting and dogs seem to relax more with it than diazepam/do better with tolerating fireworks,

I also find that people don't seem to want to put in the time for de-sensitisation techniques and prefer symptomatic therapy only....

Re: Firework petition

David Mills — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:41:47 GMT

The problem is essentially a philosophical one in my opinion, and has absolutely nothing to do with anaesthetists or otherwise.

We can only just about ascribe general, simple, contemporaneous feelings to fellow humans, and possibly animals but as for this experiences under consciousness-altering drugs: no chance.

Re: Firework petition

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:29:26 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

David My understanding of ACP is that the animalis still scared-but too sleepy to express it's terror-like remembering a nightmare later-although you were asleep at the time

Wynne

[/quote]

Oh, come on, how can anyone, ever, possibly say that with any surety other than wild guesswork? Poppycock.

[/quote] Oh God here we go same old argument every year. Careful or I will post the hanging man or Pandora's box!

Re: Firework petition

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:48:32 GMT

Well that's my understanding Any Diploma or Cert level anaesthetists around?

Wynne

Re: Firework petition

David Mills — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:10:56 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

David My understanding of ACP is that the animalis still scared-but too sleepy to express it's terror-like remembering a nightmare later-although you were asleep at the time

Wynne

[/quote]

Oh, come on, how can anyone, ever, possibly say that with any surety other than wild guesswork? Poppycock.

Re: Firework petition

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:37:18 GMT

David My understanding of ACP is that the animalis still scared-but too sleepy to express it's terror-like remembering a nightmare later-although you were asleep at the time

Wynne

Re: Firework petition

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:00:59 GMT

[quote user="Jo Jones"]My Patterdale loves fireworks, the moment they start he runs out into the garden and sits there watching them! You can almost hear him going "ooh, ah"!! [/quote]

yeah - I've got two dogs and one of them completely ignores the fireworks - she has been to many displays with us and just goes to sleep. It is the younger one that is a bit timid of them but she doesn't cause us any problems.

As has been said, it is owners that cause the issues. I realise that if you get an older dog the problems may alse be hardwired and therefore difficult to deal with, but that is why most vets, in severe circumstances, will prescribe anxiolytics. A good owner will be prepared.....

Re: Firework petition

Bob Russell — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:17:58 GMT

I don't think any vet will deny there is a problem with these 'phobias'. What I try to promote with clients is the idea that they are contributing to the problem by reacting in an unhelpful way for the dog.

I don't think dogs understand the concept of sympathy well so an owner that tries to comfort the dog is contributing to the stress not helping. Owners that show little concern about the bangs and make little of it will send the signal that all is OK. A bit of help from diazepam to reduce on-going reinforcement of the fear soon helps.

Most of these dogs will never be happy with the loud bangs but end up coping. A safe 'retreat' is good but the type of dog that destroys the house need owners that will put the effort in to desensitise. We still have Sounds Scary plus a cheaper one on our shelves that have been there for years unsold.

Until owners of that small minority of severely affected dogs wake up and take proper action we will continue having them arrive in late October, whingeing about fireworks!

Re: Firework petition

Jo Cobbett — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:11:54 GMT

My Patterdale loves fireworks, the moment they start he runs out into the garden and sits there watching them! You can almost hear him going "ooh, ah"!!

Re: Firework petition

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:32:57 GMT

I do have every sympathy for people whose dogs have firework phobias (my own dog doesn't like them and won't go outside, preferring to hide under the dining table) but there are enough restrictions in place to allow people to enjoy themselves while limiting the affect to pets and wildlife. There will always be idiots who let off fireworks in inappropriate places at daft times but lets not try to prevent everyone enjoying their firework displays!

Re: Firework petition

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 07:36:15 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

The phobia did reduce over years and eventually resolved when he went deaf!

[/quote]

Interesting; do you think there might be a component of hyperacute hearing? (Just throwing the idea out there - I remember when I was very young, loud noises seemed somehow louder.)

Re: Firework petition

Utlendigur — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:17:40 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[/quote]

I used to think that until I had a dog with fireworks phobia. I've had 5 dogs over the last 20 years, 4 of which have either been fine or only mildly bothered, the 5th was a rescue with fireworks/thunder/gunshot phobia pre-installed. It was before the days of DAP and desensitisation, but I did provide him with places to hide, ignored the fearful behaviour, acted normally etc etc. But it doesn't help if you are delayed at work and you get home to a wrecked house, and you can hardly ignore a dog that is trying to dig a live electrical socket and wiring out of the plaster. I think it's easy to be glib until you've actually had to deal with the problem yourself. The phobia did reduce over years and eventually resolved when he went deaf!

Re: Firework petition

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:35:07 GMT

There is no good reason for any animal having major issues with fireworks. Most animals, like cats, wlll just hide, and It is up to dog owners to socialise their animal properly and not overreact themselves!!! The current legislation, restricting fireworks to certain dates and times, is already very reasonable.

Re: Firework petition

David Mills — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:53:26 GMT

I think the desensitisation argument is flawed. Vast majority of owners have jobs, are busy, have families and expecting many of them to devote that much time to their animal is unrealistic; it won't be solved by bemoaning owners who don't do it. Further, there is little evidence for its efficacy with most studies' results being owner impressions by questionnaire - although there is of course an argument for this being a suitable endpoint, given the above.

On the other hand, are a handful of acp/xanax tablets two nights a year over the course of a dog's life really that problematic? Safe, effective, and convenient. If I was an owner, I know which I'd choose.

Ceva stuff is nothing but marketing guff - they know the government wouldn't do anything as silly as that. Maybe its because feliway and adaptil are, to put it mildly, of ambiguous efficacy.

Re: Firework petition

Rob Loxley — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:22:08 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]What I was kind of curious to know is whether you think the initiative is actually addressing a need[/quote]

I'd say there's a fair old problem with noise phobias

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]whether you think labeling fireworks would be an effective way to reduce the problem[/quote]

I think the government is highly unlikely to put any further controls in place that would have any meaningful effect on the problem as present, so I feel such an initiative is a highly ineffective way of reducing the problem, and is therefore plain marketing only.

What it might do is raise awareness, but as per previous replies unfortunately it usually only comes our way as a problem at 4pm on 5th November... IMHO the resources to deal with the problem (pheromones, drugs, behaviour modification, support etc.) has been around for years, and as vets we push it annually, but it needs the clients to engage, invest the time, effort and money, since fireworks simply aren't going to disappear.

Re: Firework petition

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:09:28 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] or, if this is an issue, whether you think labeling fireworks would be an effective way to reduce the problem.[/quote]

A label saying "fireworks may frighten pets" will just give the hooligans ideas.

Re: Firework petition

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:07:26 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Most firework phobias are 'created' by owners behaviour. All owners of so called firework phobic dogs should be given 10mg of diazepam each night there are fireworks and the dogs will be fine![/quote] 5 stars fro that line alone Bob!. My pets have always enjoyed fireworks because they know when we had fireworks parties (yes I plead guilty) we had a barbecue so they associate the fireworks with food. How about that for behaviour displacement advice for clients. The only time they got scared was when there was fire in the sports field at the bottom of our garden and the fire brigade with their big scary sirens and men in uniform banging around used our garden gate to access it. I just had a feeling of deja vu, I posted the same last year - must be getting old!

Re: Firework petition

Bob Russell — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:58:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I love fireworks. Not sure disclaimers on the label would do any good - you are supposed to be 25 metres away from most fireworks and you'd be fine holding them!

My little dog loves fireworks but we had dogs in the past that didn't like them. Turn the TV up and its not really a problem.

I await my red stars from the fun police.

[/quote]

No red stars from me. None of our dogs have been worried about fireworks. We continue to act as normally as our household can (our household cannot be described as 'normal' by any stretch of the imagination).

Most firework phobias are 'created' by owners behaviour. All owners of so called firework phobic dogs should be given 10mg of diazepam each night there are fireworks and the dogs will be fine!

Year on year owners wind up their dogs to the point all are nervous wrecks.

The petition will achieve nothing IMO. Warnings will achieve nothing more and unless people start 'desensitizing' when it is recommended we will continue to achieve little.

Most of our patients get by with little more than diazepam at most as emergency treatment.

Re: Firework petition

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:30:38 GMT

I love fireworks. Not sure disclaimers on the label would do any good - you are supposed to be 25 metres away from most fireworks and you'd be fine holding them!

My little dog loves fireworks but we had dogs in the past that didn't like them. Turn the TV up and its not really a problem.

I await my red stars from the fun police.

Re: Firework petition

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:29:40 GMT

It is a big problem but it is one in which, as a profession, have a great part to play. Fireworks will always be around and there will never be an enforceable blanket ban so ameliorating the effect they have on animals and working with pet owners is essential. Products like CEVA's Feliway and Adaptil have a great part to play as do some behaviour modifying drugs but the key is behavioural management which needs to begin months before the desired effect. The problem is getting the vast majority of owners to do anything about it before November 4th when all we can do is temporarily manage the problem rather than address it seriously in the long term. They want a magic fix but don't want to commit time or finances to finding the correct solution. Any publicity which gets owners to take this on-board is valuable but I don't feel advertising on fireworks will make one scrap of difference. Most people who let them off have no consideration for animals unless they have pets themselves

Re: Firework petition

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:09:45 GMT

There's definitely a need

Whether this is the best way I don't know-personally I'd like the maximum legalsize greatly reduced-and a whopping nuisance tax put on them-don't pass out with shock-me advising taxes-but this would be one easy to avoid-like tobacco or spirits tax-just don't buy the damn things in the 1st place

Wynne

Re: Firework petition

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:52:15 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Cheap advertising for CEVA's products me thinks![/quote]

Well yes, as an ex-marketing man myself, I take that as a given (and I don't think there is anything wrong in advertising the products, cheaply or otherwise).

What I was kind of curious to know is whether you think the initiative is actually addressing a need (i.e. how big is the problem of scared dogs on bonfire night; does it need a campaign like this), or, if this is an issue, whether you think labeling fireworks would be an effective way to reduce the problem.