1 min presentation on current flea issues

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

patrick murphy — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:40:46 GMT

I goggled Promeris to find out what it was, and all I got was being withdrawn because of cancers?

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:30:38 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Last time I spoke to Merial they told me that south of the M4 there are problems but none north of it!

[/quote]

That's no surprise, I avoid that area myself!

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Bob Russell — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:21:15 GMT

Replace the Advocate with Advantage for use in the practice. It is cheaper and just as good for flea control in 'emergency' practice situations. We ask about flea control on all our consent for admission forms and warn that flea control will be used at the owners expense where necessary. Those hooching cat spays - treat on admission and fleas will be dead or moribund by the time you operate.

I accept some of these 'failures' may be fleas 'waiting to die' especially with promeris and this can be explained to owners.

I put a Seresto collar on a dog heaving with fleas at the beginning of the consultation and there was a dead flea next to the collar by the end of the consultation! Owner was impressed!

Apparently it is very difficult to prove resistance under field conditions so competitor companies avoid talking in those terms. Last time I spoke to Merial they told me that south of the M4 there are problems but none north of it!

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

vs0u — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 11:44:40 GMT

I think there's definitely some resistance developing to fipronil, I have seen two cases which I sprayed with frontline spray at the high end of the dose range, one a young kitten that the owners had only had less than a day, the other an elderly cat with a severe flea infestation that was then hospitalised for other reasons. Both were still hooching with fleas 48 hours later. Advocate spot on sorted the problem swiftly. (I originally sprayed them as I thought it would work quicker than a spot on!). I've also heard many reports from clients with animals treated with frontline spot on and still have fleas. These are clients treating regularly, so environmental control shouldn't be so much of an issue. Those using Advocate aren't seeming to have any problems so compliance problems seem unlikely...

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Bob Russell — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 10:56:14 GMT

We have used Promeris as our main product of choice over the last few years and we have never seen a failure (even with fairly dubious compliance) except where owners have tried to make a three pack last 24 months!

Activyl seems OK so far and we recommend this where owners really hate the Promeris that much!

Seresto cat collars have the concertina design that allows them to stretch and apparently they will break completely if that is not enough. My cats would never keep ordinary collars on but these have remained in place for nearly six months now! Not a single tick found, dog or cat over the whole summer and as we live in the middle of nowhere in the New Forest this is a first!

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Alison McIntosh — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 09:36:44 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]

I have spoken to our Bayer rep this morning about these, and they apparently have 2 failsafes for cats - one is that the clicky bit holding it together (sorry, technical terms not in my head right now) will open, and also the entire collar will break with a cat weight on it if caught and pulling. I haven't got any experience of them in use yet though, my own cats have never worn collars so don't think they would be too keen in all honesty.

[/quote]

Ah, cheers for that. That also might explain how the pups have occasionally removed each other's collar - a good yank and it comes free!

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 22:45:42 GMT

[quote user="Alison McIntosh"]

Seresto collars have been absolutely brilliant against ticks - not a single one seen on my dogs since I started using them.

(I just wish they came formulated for people as well...)

Anyone got any experience of how well cats do with them? Do I need to worry about increased risk of collar injury?

[/quote]

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Utlendigur — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 21:04:57 GMT

For some reason I find a lot of people think that frontline should be applied every 3months and will swear blind that it says that on the packet

As frontline is so widely available, could it just be that more people are using it, so if for argument 30% cases fail, if 100 people buy it you will see 30 failures, if 500 people it will be150 failures.

What do people think of certifect? So far we have had several dogs react badly to it (very severe sedation and ataxia). Of the practice dogs that have had it, half have been fine, and half (belonging to different vets) reacted - plus a couple of angry clients who didn't think much of it either. It does seem very effective with the ticks literally dropping off, but the side effects have really put me off using it again. Does it have a cumulative effect? since on first use my dogs seemed only mildly sedated, it was the second time that really hit them (and me - felt like a bout of flu - even with all the windows open). SARS forms have been done but not heard anything back.

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Alison McIntosh — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 20:48:57 GMT

Slightly veering off the margins of the topic here but Frontline isn't that great for ticks either...only lasts a couple of weeks at the most in my experience (high tick area, very active small spaniels).

Seresto collars have been absolutely brilliant against ticks - not a single one seen on my dogs since I started using them.

(I just wish they came formulated for people as well...)

Anyone got any experience of how well cats do with them? Do I need to worry about increased risk of collar injury?

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Nicola Lawlor — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 20:17:08 GMT

Interesting that this is considered a compliance problem, yet no-one using other spot on products is coming into our clinic with issues like this. Why is a compliance problem not then affecting other products??

We had a client who used to buy frontline from the clinic and was happy with it. The clinic switched to stocking Effipro and she then bought that when next in, thinking it was another product but used it as directed. The cat developed a flea problem. Unhappy that the Effipro was not doing the job and unaware it was the same product she went to a pharmacy and bought Frontline for the cat, and the flea problems continued. She returned to us for help and sorted the problems with advocate and household spray straight away.

I hear the experts saying there is no problem but my experience in clinics tells me differently. I wish our clinic would stop stocking the stuff altogether and stick to alternatives.

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Alice Courtney — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 18:31:09 GMT

We have used Frontline combo for years, and I believe we have good client compliance with it (particularly those who pay for it by direct debit as our VIP scheme!). We use it partly because we have quite a high tick burden around here. What break-throughs I do see, although uncommon, are often cases where there are other untreated animals in the environment (stray cats, neighbour's animals etc), and no environmental control. We also use Advocate on a risk-assessment/lifestyle basis. That said, I think I have seen more fleas this year, in general.

Really interesting to hear good reports of Seresto.

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 18:00:25 GMT

We have had exactly the same conversation this week in our own practice. We have been having clients coming in this summer who have recently (within the previous 3 weeks) used Frontline Combo supplied by us, who still have very active live fleas on their dogs. This is not something we have seen previously. We have definitely seen a heavier flea burden on non treated pets too, including one who was absolutely crawling with them - I have never seen so many fleas on one animal in the last 25 years. I would agree with Bob that the Frontline spray is ok, I applied it to this dog in the cons room and they were dropping off dying within seconds.

We are still discussing, but I think it likely that we are going to go for Seresto Collars, with Advocate as the alternative (or additional as Bayer would suggest, to catch the lungworm/roundworm issues, but I think most clients would rather one treatment). We are in a heavy tick area too, so the tick repellant of Seresto is a useful additive. So far, not much lungworm identified in this area (North Yorkshire). In the heavy lungworm affected areas, how effective do practitioners think Advocate is as a preventative?

The picture below is from three short combs from the infested JRT's caudal back..

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 17:45:51 GMT

If you use enough Fipronil (ie the spray) it will work. The spot-on is the product that is not working adequately. The big advantage of Seresto collars is they are either on or not on so compliance is immediately evident!

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 17:38:56 GMT

There is nothing wrong with Fipronil - spray a cat with in house and the fleas will be falling off within minutes unless its the alcohol getting them pissed! I think it is without a doubt a compliance problem, I have used Frontline spot-on on my cats and it is nigh on impossible to get in all on the skin - too viscous and too high a volume. This coupled with successive warm winters and humid summers has seen the numbers of fleas increase. Fipronil works as well as it ever did it is just overwhelmed by sheer numbers and not actually being in the place it needs to be to do the job.

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Rob Loxley — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 17:31:53 GMT

Like everyone we've seen lots of fleas. My opinion is it is partly due to the weather over the last year, added to poor compliance with treatment (maybe as people are feeling the pinch and were treating less?), and therefore the development of an infestation in the household enviroment, coupled with everyone wanting a quick fix which isn't always possible. Frontline seems to come up as a culprit according to some clients, but given 90% of our clients are on it I'm not sure the proportion is higher than for say Advantage, Advocate or Stronghold.

I'd go for a monthly adulticide and household spray (+ associated environmental management); if not improving then add an IGR if not already included.
I'm not convinced it's a true fipronil resistance problem (though I am more sceptical that it still works adequately 2 months after application in dogs...), but given there are plenty of adulticides we can offer, if the client has 'lost faith' in Frontline then I'll change adulticide. In bad cases have used 2 adulticides (one with an IGR) 2 weeks apart and household spray etc.

Have dispensed a few Seresto collars but not enough to get meaningful feedback yet; likewise used some Comfortis but it's another half dozen sizes of medication to stock...

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:44:12 GMT

We use Frontline Combo and are happy with it.

Vital to treat the environment.

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:37:13 GMT

Fipronil is now available in the pet shops under the Bob Martins name. 'Fiprokil'

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

plantagenet — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:30:37 GMT

We have plenty of fleas here and plenty of treatment failures to pet shop treatment, but I have never had a reported problem to frontline or combo.

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:24:34 GMT

Good point!! I will mention this next time I see the client. I had not even considered this. Thanks

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

J G Wray — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:19:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The strangest breakdown is a CKCS regularly treated with Prac-tic - owner lives in brand new house, premise sprays etc. Scratching of heads (and other places) with this one.[/quote]

One of our recpetionists bought a new build and regularly visited the house during construction. Towards the end she had to shoo the building site cats out when visiting. I persuaded her to treat with Indorex before furnishings and floor covering went in.

JGW

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:06:22 GMT

Resistance is difficult to prove or disprove whereas dissatisfied clients are very easy to identify. I tend to use the term unsatisfactory for flea control without commenting on resistance!

Client compliance has, I suspect, not changed much over the years but the failure to control fleas with Fipronil has increased here over the last 6+ years.

I am doubting that Frontline was ever as good at controlling fleas as we liked to think. I have certainly got better at looking for fleas than I was in the past!

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Anthony Todd — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:04:23 GMT

[quote user="Emily Herskind Nightingale"]more of a compliance problem?[/quote]

Yes it is!

Make owners do it every 4 weeks to the day by marking the calender. A check is "and what day of the week do you treat the animals?".

Not, not, "are you treating them every month" where the answer is always "yes".

Any non-specific answer means that they are not doing it every 4 weeks, no questions, no ifs or buts!

May be less than 4 weeks control in hot weather??

Even 10 years ago I never rated Frontline but then I never used it ,and only dealt with the failures of control where the idea of 4 weeks, on a specific day of the week, was greeted with an amazed and confused look usually.....

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

James Laidlaw — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:55:35 GMT

CPD last year from USA (Dr Bob?) was that no "evidence" of true resistance to frontline exists and compliance or environmental factors are likely to be the problem. In really bad cases, I'd go with frontline combo or something like advocate/stronghold and capstar on day one, repeat initially before 4 weeks and use approved IGR to treat the environment/bedding etc. I imagine a lot of issues are in outdoor cats who could still pick up adult fleas from outside despite regular treatment that won't instantly die, hence apparent failures or resistance. I am prepared for Mr Red Star to pay me a visit, but this is my approach.

Re: 1 min presentation on current flea issues

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:38:53 GMT

For whatever reason we have long since found Fipronil products (in all guises) unsatisfactory for flea control. Promeris, Activyl, Stronghold and all the Imidoclprid based products are working fine if used monthly.

Seresto collars are a breeze to sell and not a single comeback so far.

It amazes me that any practice is still stocking Frontline or its many clones other than for tick control.

We do have two unexplained breakdowns in dogs, one regularly treated with Prac-tic, one regularly treated with Promeris Duo. They are on Comfortis now! Both were heaving with fleas!!

The strangest breakdown is a CKCS regularly treated with Prac-tic - owner lives in brand new house, premise sprays etc. Scratching of heads (and other places) with this one.