Vaccines without a vet

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 09:06:16 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Yet you can sign and stamp a rabies vaccination in a passport without witnessing the vaccination.[/quote] You are signing the passport on the basis that a veterinary surgeon has testified he/she has given the the vaccine from clinical records or another certificate not that a nurse (or the bank manager!) has given it - herein lies the fundamental difference. Now whether you trust that testimony is another matter but not one which the guide to professional conduct regulates for.

Re: Vaccines without a vet

tess — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 22:08:26 GMT

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 22:00:58 GMT

[quote user="tess"]

To be honest, if it's on the records, I'm happy to sign. The other vet is hardly like to have danced around the room squirting it in the air

[/quote]

I don't know, I've done that quite a lot with kennel cough vaccines

Re: Vaccines without a vet

James Laidlaw — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 21:59:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]We'll have to agree to disagree. All my qualified nurses are registered and I would be as happy to certify pretty much anything they have carried out the same as I would for another VS. [/quote] There's nothing to disagree about, you may trust your nurses to the end of the world as I would mine but that doesn't alter the fact that you cannot sign the certificate unless you witness the act of vaccination and their signature is not valid as a certificate. End of.

[/quote] Yet you can sign and stamp a rabies vaccination in a passport without witnessing the vaccination.

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 19:37:15 GMT

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 18:09:09 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If the nurse gave it (regardless of her professional status in your's or anyone else's eyes) unless it was witnessed by a veterinary surgeon who can corroborate this you cannot (or should I say 'should not') sign it.[/quote]

We'll have to agree to disagree. All my qualified nurses are registered and I would be as happy to certify pretty much anything they have carried out the same as I would for another VS. They are subject to the same professional standards as us. Having said that, my nurses sign the card themselves after they have given a 2nd vacc!

Re: Vaccines without a vet

James Laidlaw — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:00:06 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

But what happens if a card is plainly marked vaccination CERTIFICATE in print,has a column headed veterinary SURGEON and the kennels /cattery won't accept it without a signature? The veterinary surgeon can't sign it unless he/she saw it being administered

Wynne

[/quote] You don't sign it without a history... In this example, the kennels are right to refuse and if you can't acess a history from a vets that you're happy with then the client will have trouble gettin into the kennels. I still don't see why this is such a big issue. Either restart the course, or the client accepts their dog or cat isn't fully guaranteed cover and may not get into kennels. I ALWAYS try to get a history for new patients and if I'm not happy with the vaccination history I discuss it with the client when they arrive.

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:55:02 GMT

Thanks Martin

Wynne

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:53:04 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I have signed vaccine certificates where one of my colleagues gave the vaccine, but the owner forgot the card at the time. i check the record, make sure dates and batch numbers agree, fill in the card and sign it quite happily. If it had been given by an RVN colleague in my practice I'm not sure how I would feel about signing - the issue wouldn't come up - but it would be in my opinion disrespectful of their professional status to quibble over it. I'd be inclined to sign such a certificate based on the clinical records in the same way as I would for a vaccine given by a VS colleague

[/quote]I had almost given up the will to live on this debate (no hanging man this time) but felt prompted to say in response to this that you have no dilemma: if your colleague confirms he gave the vaccination and it is recorded in the pet's notes you can sign the vaccination record (certificate). If the nurse gave it (regardless of her professional status in your's or anyone else's eyes) unless it was witnessed by a veterinary surgeon who can corroborate this you cannot (or should I say 'should not') sign it. And 5 stars for Wynne's 2 previous posts.

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:10:47 GMT

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:49:49 GMT

Wynne

Re: Vaccines without a vet

James Laidlaw — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:45:03 GMT

But vets aren't signing incorrect certificates! I thought the issue is that certificates arrive unsigned, thereby raising questions over the validity? Or have I got lost in this...

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:40:31 GMT

Because a veterinary surgeon's signature should mean something-else we'll be as bad as doctors who will sign anything

Wynne

Re: Vaccines without a vet

James Laidlaw — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 12:55:36 GMT

Isn't the crux that you just need to be happy the owner is not lying to you and if concerned then restart the vaccines. If they don't want to restart and you can't verify the history then you just say you can't guarantee vaccination is protective without these but it's their informed choice then. Why the big fuss over certificate vs not certificate?

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 12:18:33 GMT

Alex - we are OT but a horse vaccination certificate is a certificate, the individual animal is identified by a sketch and now a microchip, just as a pet passport is a certificate.

A vaccine record card is just that, a record. One black lab called Rolo looks very much like another and if the owner doesn't have the dog chipped there is no way I would 'certify' that vaccine had gone to the correct black lab! Equally I like sticking the stickers in, that would be unacceptable as open to tampering.

I am certain that as a profession we DO NOT want these simple record cards to be classed as certificates.

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Alex Gough — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:21:37 GMT

Recently wasn't a vet reprimanded at DC level for signing a horse vacc card that her receptionist had filled in for her, and the dates were wrong. I think a horse vacc card is definitely a certificate. I suspect that technically a vaccination record is a certificate because it has a vet's signature on it - if it was just a record why bother to sign it? However, they often don't reach the standards of certification. Ideally we would get guidance from high on this, but what are the chances...

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:08:35 GMT

But until the last listed has retired not all nurses entitled to give injections are subject to discipline

Wynne

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:48:03 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]listed VNs although entitled to inject aren't subject to disciplinary procedures[/quote]

An RVN is though.

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:46:59 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]but I believe approx 30 years ago there was a disciplinary case against a veterinary surgeon who filled in a horse's vaccination cert when another veterinary surgeon in the practice had done the work[/quote]

Sorry but is that the best you can do? Thousands of pet vaccination cards are filled in every day and I am not aware of anyone getting in trouble relating to them being inaccurate/incomplete. That is because THEY AREN'T A CERTIFICATE! Obviously they shouldn't be deliberately falsified or left blank as that would be unethical but that is a different matter to attaching a legal importance to them that doesn't exist!

Anyway, we've been here many times before....maybe we should get back to the original thread....

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:31:27 GMT

We'll have to agree to differ about a vaccination certificate not being a certificate-but I believe approx 30 years ago there was a disciplinary case against a veterinary surgeon who filled in a horse's vaccination cert when another veterinary surgeon in the practice had done the work That was before passports, and before horse certs needed sketches,and before microchips were even invented-so the identification was exactly like that for small animals I wouldn't fill in a cert in these circumstances, as a VN isn't a veterinary surgeon-and the guide only says "veterinary surgeon",and listed VNs although entitled to inject aren't subject to disciplinary procedures

Wynne

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:05:51 GMT

[quote user="tess"]Does this then mean that if a client needs an up-to-date vacc card and all the history is there on the records , and the original vet isn't around, that technically I can't sign the vacc card as I would be guilty of false certification. That seems crazy...[/quote]

Says who? From RCVS website:

A veterinarian should be asked to certify only those matters which are within his own knowledge, can be ascertained by him personally or are the subject of a supporting certificate from another veterinarian who does have personal knowledge of the matters in question and is authorised to provide such a supporting document.

A PMS entry with another vets log in is good enough for me.

(A vaccine card is NOT a certificate, I even asked the VDS once when I was speaking to them on another matter. The identification of the animal is not sufficiently well confirmed, esp if not chipped. Even if the dog is chipped do you check that every booster? I put stickers from the chip and the vaccine bottles on the booster card, that would not be acceptable if it was a certificate.)

Re: Vaccines without a vet

tess — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:04:56 GMT

To be honest, if it's on the records, I'm happy to sign. The other vet is hardly like to have danced around the room squirting it in the air

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Rob Loxley — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 08:27:45 GMT

Well you can certainly fill out a Pet Passport based on evidence of work done by someone else (chip, vacc etc.)

Re: Vaccines without a vet

Tim Cheyne — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 05:43:25 GMT

[quote user="tess"]

Does this then mean that if a client needs an up-to-date vacc card and all the history is there on the records , and the original vet isn't around, that technically I can't sign the vacc card as I would be guilty of false certification. That seems crazy...

[/quote]

Can you not make it clear that it is a copy?........along the lines of "Our records show that.......... was vaccinated by us according to the following schedule and dates........" Would that be false certification?

Tim.

Re: Vaccines without a vet

tess — Thu, 06 Sep 2012 00:01:25 GMT