VIN

Re: VIN

Mike Martin — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:44:10 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]Does anyone use VIN ? I was thinking of joining, though It's quite expensive, is it worth it?[/quote]

Yes. Yes. It might seem expensive, but it is value for money. There is a wealth of information on there, not just advice on case, but search facilities for papers etc.

Go for it!

Vetsurgeon.org fills a different role. Also a very valuable resource.

Re: VIN

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 09:21:19 GMT

With regards to Vetsurgeon "aggression" - this is a forum - very different to a commercial site. Forums are for discussions and opinions and it is both inevitable but also very healthy to have differing opinions on things. Sometimes things get a little heated but this is pretty rare compared to most other (non veterinary) forums. I've certainly been involved in some robust debates and I will admit sometimes (very rarely! ;-) ) I have actually been in the wrong and I've learned a few things along the way.

So I for one think the current system works very well and I am against strict moderation because I think that will stifle debate more than the odd little spat.

If you do feel slighted etc remember - "it's only the internet."

Re: VIN

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:45:54 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

If you think there is no aggression on VIN, try being a sceptic on their altmed board!

Alex

[/quote]

Don't be so crass, obviously the water 'remembers' the magical effects of whatever factor it was!

Re: VIN

Alex Gough — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:29:16 GMT

If you think there is no aggression on VIN, try being a sceptic on their altmed board!

Alex

Re: VIN

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:02:04 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I've thought things have become rather less aggressive on VetSurgeon in recent times.

[/quote]

I agree!

I'd also like to stress that I really do think this an excellent forum; nothing is perfect and there will always be a minority of people who can't help themselves... and moreover, who those people are, not everyone will necessarily agree on! I've seen forums moderated by peers that have not worked one bit. What happened was that those intent on fights knew exactly how far they could push it without getting thrown off, and basically treated the whole thing as a game. It was also unhelpful that the moderators didn't actually have very much by way of clout, and would often get undermined by the forums owners. There was a complaints procedure, which was large and cumbersome and an absolute godsend to anyone wanting to perpetuate the status quo. And then, of course, there were quite a few less than adequate moderators.

So whilst I appreciate that every forum is different and that it doesn't have to be like that either, overall, I favour the benign dictatorship approach... I think it's working :0)

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[/quote]

This also I agree with.

Re: VIN

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:16:19 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

'estate agent nice' (which is that rather plastic smile that estate agents wear to make you think they like you, when you know they are only after the sale).

Would appreciate everyone / anyone's thoughts.

[/quote]

I'm just trying to buy a flat so I can totally understand this one. The thing about moderating is that VS does seem to go a bit in waves...sometimes it's fairly unremarkable in terms of commentary and then something will just kick it off.

Re: VIN

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 08:31:14 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]I also like the 'questions answered with less aggression' bit... this is a fantastic forum overall and can be very helpful indeed, and whilst it's here, I'll stick with it; but there are quite a lot of questions that get answered with 'why do you think you're doing that in the first place' and 'shouldn't you know that' type responses... I've thought a few times that it's bound to put some people off. And indeed, there are quite a few questions I wouldn't ask here myself. [/quote]

I think there are a few reasons for the aggression in this forum which you don't see on VIN:

VIN is a paid for service, so people are being paid to respond courteously.
a generalisation, of course, but I've always found the Americans to be a friendlier bunch than the British, sometimes annoyingly so!
in the grand scheme of things, VetSurgeon is still quite new. Newer than VIN certainly. Online communities do tend to attract some more vocal members of society amongst the early joiners. Think RMB, for example! But as online communities mature, so larger numbers of people without any axe to grind join up.

I've thought things have become rather less aggressive on VetSurgeon in recent times. But perhaps I've missed something. It's something I dislike enormously, for exactly the reason you've said, Lorna (makes people frightened to ask).

In the short term, I do urge anyone who feels that they have had a less than helpful reply to contact me, in case I have missed the post.

In the long term, I have a couple of thoughts:

Sounds cheesy, but this IS your community. I really want regular contributors to feel you can moderate this forum yourself. In other words, if you see someone posting something which calls into question someone else's knowledge / professionalism as a result of a question they've asked, step in and say it is not allowed!
I suppose the point is that I've been the sole benign dictator for a while now, and perhaps some of you think it is not your place to 'police' the forum. It is! The site and the community has grown to a point now where I cannot read every post and you the members need to stand up and say when someone is being out of order. Or, if you feel more comfortable, send me a private message and I'll do something.
The point is that this forum CAN be everything you want it to be, but it needs everyone to pitch in a bit.
Other thought: I wonder whether we need to think about increasing the number of moderators, and pay others to do it. Problem is that I don't have much spare budget to pay anyone. Would anyone be interested in being a moderator? There are some regulars who I think would be great.
Other thought: Do we go down the VIN route, and start offering a UK based paid Q&A service? My model was always that the profession could share information without paying for it! In some disciplines, this works pretty well (Mark and Malcolm answer a lot of exotic and orthopaedic questions, and Evelyn does teeth, for example). But perhaps we need to introduce a paid section to make it more reliable / increase the scope. I certainly wouldn't like to go entirely down the VIN route (all clinical questions answered by paid consultants), but maybe a hybrid is possible.

I should add a caveat about aggression in the forums. I am averse to anything which frightens people from posting - primarily anything which makes someone feel small or belittled. I'm actually not against the occasional argument, and don't want the whole thing to become what I call 'estate agent nice' (which is that rather plastic smile that estate agents wear to make you think they like you, when you know they are only after the sale).

Would appreciate everyone / anyone's thoughts.

Re: VIN

Sarah Mark — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:03:43 GMT

+1 for VIN. I find it incredibly useful as a solo vet. Wouldn't be without it.

Re: VIN

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 18:33:52 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]Its far more clinical and less 'social' than vetusrgeon - its aimed squarely at what we do at the sharp end every day, and hence there is less aggression and it pays for itself very quickly indeed.[/quote]

Though if you fancy a bit of a fight, or a natter about irrelevant stuff on VIN there are plenty of takers on the "Life away from the office" "Issues and answers" and "Issues and arguments" boards, though the latter is mostly just full of hardline Republicans and Democrats blazing away at each other

Re: VIN

Rajat — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 18:28:43 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

I think maybe you've just convinced me... so far, the cost has put me off.

I also like the 'questions answered with less aggression' bit... this is a fantastic forum overall and can be very helpful indeed, and whilst it's here, I'll stick with it; but there are quite a lot of questions that get answered with 'why do you think you're doing that in the first place' and 'shouldn't you know that' type responses... I've thought a few times that it's bound to put some people off. And indeed, there are quite a few questions I wouldn't ask here myself.

Its far more clinical and less 'social' than vetusrgeon - its aimed squarely at what we do at the sharp end every day, and hence there is less aggression and it pays for itself very quickly indeed.

[/quote]

Re: VIN

Mark Norcott — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:43:59 GMT

It is a fantastic resource. I use it pretty much every day. It is invaluable for me.

Re: VIN

Lorna McHardy — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:14:51 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

It's worth doing the free trial. They do a handy thing you can click on and get a printout of the monthly cost with a yearly total which is handy when doing your tax return (I joined VIN as a self employed locum and counted it as expenses).

I joined 6 or 7 years ago and use it enough to justify the cost.

[/quote]

I think maybe you've just convinced me... so far, the cost has put me off.

Re: VIN

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:13:34 GMT

Malcolm Ness did that loads of times here ;)

Re: VIN

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:02:41 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]How would anyone know? [/quote]

Because, despite the fact that we are all smart enough to get a vet degree, some people still post under the username "Sarah" and sign the post "Bob". Happens amusingly often.

Re: VIN

Mark Rowland — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:48:45 GMT

Ha ha one locum friend of mine went home and tried to log in from Zimbabwe using my details. I got a gentle ticking off. I was the victim of a security breech though where another viner downloaded a discussion I had engaged in about egg eating snakes from vin to answer an online question from a person who was my client. They were very apologetic phoning me from the USA to apologise. I think it's a very good service.

Re: VIN

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:39:49 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]They get politely annoyed if an individual account is shared, though they don't seem to mind if I write that I am asking a question on behalf of a colleague.[/quote]

How would anyone know?

Re: VIN

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:36:31 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Why on earth would two people in the practice need an account? Just share one!

Does it cover 'proper animals' (cattle and sheep) or just pets?

Is it very 'American' - because they annoy me (we had too many at college)?

[/quote]

They get politely annoyed if an individual account is shared, though they don't seem to mind if I write that I am asking a question on behalf of a colleague.

There is a ruminants and an equine folder, though I find these less useful than the other folders. A lot of the ruminant questions are about pet llamas and goats, not much about herd medicine. A lot of the equine questions are small animal vets asking about their own horses. They do have diploma holders answering the questions though; Lisle George in the ruminant folder is very good and there are some good horse vets on there including Dennis Brooks who will answer equine opthalmology questions.

It's quite American, but there are a good few internationals as well - I was introduced to VIN by a Kiwi.

I joined 6 or 7 years ago and use it enough to justify the cost.

Ginny

Re: VIN

Mark Rowland — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:40:40 GMT

Ha ha so is horse.

Re: VIN

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:27:33 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]There aren't any cras "stick it in a pot" answers to the rabbit discussions either.[/quote]

But rabbit is so delicious...........

(Maybe it's because Mr McDonald doesn't offer them on his menu...........)

Re: VIN

Mark Rowland — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 13:01:15 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

(with noticeably less aggression than on this forum!)

[/quote] Agree with this. There aren't any cras "stick it in a pot" answers to the rabbit discussions either. But I suppose this forum and the VIN forum are different entities.

Re: VIN

plantagenet — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 12:12:35 GMT

I think VIN is wonderful and use it a lot. worth every penny and the americanness is generally easy to translate. Specific questions are quickly and accurately answered (with noticeably less aggression than on this forum!) Fantastic resource - there are whole text books on there, client ed material etc etc

Re: VIN

Anthony Todd — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:32:33 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]I think you meant large animals vs small animals?[/quote]

Some vets think anything smaller than a pig's a parasite....

Re: VIN

Rajat — Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:38:57 GMT

Hi Michael

It is an international website but predominantly American. People are friendly helpful and nice. But if you dislike Americans so much you and cannot separate personal nationality based distaste from gainful professional interaction with colleagues then I guess you should stay clear.

It covers ALL species.

Sharing of accounts is not allowed for obvious reasons.

PS some people keep cows and sheep as pets too. Pigs and horses too..I think you meant large animals vs small animals?

Re: VIN

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:40:19 GMT

Why on earth would two people in the practice need an account? Just share one!

Does it cover 'proper animals' (cattle and sheep) or just pets?

Is it very 'American' - because they annoy me (we had too many at college)?

Re: VIN

Rajat — Sun, 26 Aug 2012 20:52:23 GMT

Hi Chris

In my practice I am known as the VIN fanatic. It is an amazing resource. I would not have been exposed to half the knowledge that I have been had I not had VIN. It has videos, access to specialists from every discipline, proceedings from vitually every conference, and an answer for everything- because everyone has had the same problem at some time

In addition it exposes you to therapies much earlier than they are commonplace. As a result I have been able to serve my patients better - for e.g. using mirtazapine and voluven much before they became commonplace and general knowledge amongst GPs.

In the last week I used it to search for advice on how to balloon dilate oesophageal strictures, and learnt more about advanced fluid therapy in specific critical care cases. It also has echo calculators, phlebotomy calculators, chocolate toxicity calculators, and many such resources almost impossible to list. You can post any kind of clinical cases radiographs ecgs and so on and recieve responses from experts in the field within a day or 2. Its not the same as telemdicine but close and in fact I think a bit better because you get to access the history of all people who have searched for the same thing and the answers they have received.

I think it is amazing for a young graduate- as you have a pretty awesome knowledge base already being a cert holder, it may be a bit less useful - but I wouldn't give up VIN membership for anything. I think it helps me to be a far better vet than I could be without it.

I also think they do a 30 day trial for free and its cheaper per person if several people sign up from the practice]

Join the revolution comrade! Lol

Best wishes

Raj