Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Charlotte Marshall — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 19:05:15 GMT

Interesting - so did the puppy I dealt with (allegedly). Apparently this is increasingly common.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Rob Davis — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:04:19 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

One local rescue (not Dogs Trust) is telling people they can get whatever breed the prospective owner wants from Ireland!

Add to this the puppies coming in from Eastern Europe (often looking suspiciously young for documented age) there is clearly good business and money to be made.

[/quote]

Apparently this litter came from Romania via Ireland, so ticks both boxes!

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Lucy K — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:05:47 GMT

One of the good things about going to college in central Europe is how much rabies is drilled into us, to the point at which, if I met a dog hypersalivating with a great big fish hook sticking out of it's mouth it would definitely be at the forefront of my mind.

As to veterinary public health in these countries, we were told a story in an Epi lecture, (Mark will probably remember it too) about a cat, way up in Northern Hungary who had turned violent and bit it's aged owner on the neck. The owner's son had rang the local vet in the town and he told him to get the cat to the university hospital in Budapest. He wrestled the cat into a cardboard box and brought it, hissing and snarling ,for 3 hours on the packed train down to the capital. The elderly owner died, as did the cat, fairly promptly on arrival to the university hospital! Things have changed now, thankfully.

I used to foster dogs while in Hungary. Vet students used to get to know the dog, socialise them a bit, get their veterinary stuff sorted out and then they would go to permanent homes in Norway and Sweden. The regulations on vaccination and passports are very strict for these countries. My friend (also a vet student) adopted a dog and brought it back to Ireland, through Manchester. I'll ask her where his passport was checked and report back.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Bob Russell — Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:56:12 GMT

There is no place for mass importation of pets for re-homing until the problems with local dog rescues have been resolved. My suspicion is that many of the rescue societies are using the importation of easily homeable dogs especially from Ireland to 'supplement' income to replace donations.

Dogs Trust seems to be the worst offender around here but there are plenty of others. Are they acting more as dealers rather than rescue charities?

One local rescue (not Dogs Trust) is telling people they can get whatever breed the prospective owner wants from Ireland!

Add to this the puppies coming in from Eastern Europe (often looking suspiciously young for documented age) there is clearly good business and money to be made.

Where did it all go wrong?

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Charlotte Marshall — Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:24:19 GMT

I have discovered that the people to report ilegal imports to are the environmental health department of the local authority. Why DEFRA or customs (who must have missed finding the animal when it was imported) are not involved I don't know. Although the lady I reported my case to rang back to thank me and tell me the outcome I did not feel they took it as seriously as perhaps they should.

I have also seen some of these 'rescue' dogs and given the current problem with people giving up pets because of the economic situation it seems ridiculous as there are so many animals needing homes in the UK.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Rob Davis — Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:53:57 GMT

Just seen a 19 week old puppy "rescued" from Romania and rehomed via a UK charity. Passport presented had different microchip number to puppy. Charity say there were three puppies in the litter and they must have muddled the passports. I am hoping I will be presented with the correct documentation shortly.

Passport irregularities aside, why on earth does anybody think that importing whole litters of crossbreed puppies from Romania for rehoming in the UK is a good way to spend charitable donations?!

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:33:38 GMT

Interesting that the rules on importing dogs into New Zealand from the UK changed on 1st January this year, they now require rabies vaccination and serology.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Zepher — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:28:37 GMT

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Tim Cheyne — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:20:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Classic rabies looks like it does in the films if you are expecting it! How often does rabies spring to mind when you have a dog or cat with neurological signs?[/quote]

Sometimes I wonder whether, if I had met a case of BSE before the condition became well-known, I would have considered rabies as a possibility. Classic rabies looks like it does in films because that is what the film makers are trying to show but how many cases do not follow the classic picture? Does dumb rabies occur in dogs? I don't know but I have certainly seen dumb rabies and other atypical syndromes in larger animals.

Tim.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Bob Russell — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:04:16 GMT

Classic rabies looks like it does in the films if you are expecting it! How often does rabies spring to mind when you have a dog or cat with neurological signs?

I suspect not top of the list although it should be on it!

Rabies, a large urban fox population and a large population of unvaccinated dogs and cats has the potential to be a disaster!

In 2005 6,500 rabies cases were reported in central and eastern Europe. Many of these countries are not particularly renowned for the quality of their public health services so the threat is there!

It is far more worrying where pets are illegally imported from these areas than Western Europe.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Tim Cheyne — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:42:35 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]I think you'd find out if you've been exposed as your patient will end up dead with suspicious symptoms.[/quote]

That could be much too late. The interval between being infected and showing symptoms is extremely variable. Some years ago a young Brit in Africa died of rabies only a week or so after the puppy that was believed to have infected him three weeks before by licking a sore on his lip. Many (most?) rabid animals excrete virus in the saliva a day or so before exhibiting signs of infection; if the animal is in transit you might never see the sequel.

I have worked with rabies abroad and I am prepared to admit that I did not recognise my first case of rabies and was prepared to examine it until prevented ohysically from doing so by a local AHA. Since then I have never taken chances and the advent of the human diploid vaccine was a blessing because I had little faith in the earlier vaccines.

Tim.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Bob Russell — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:46:25 GMT

One of the real disadvantages with the dilution of PETS is that it leads to complacency in some travelers, removal of tight regulation sends out signals that rabies is nothing to panic about. Many countries in Europe have lived with rabies and worked really hard to reduce the public health risks.

They have pretty much succeeded as humans acquiring rabies is pretty much unheard of within Europe.

We have no such protection in the UK. Our pets are by and large unvaccinated and we have to rely on the responsibility of the authorities and general public in Europe to minimise the risk to us.

I know there will be comments about exaggerating the risks but having seen rabies at close quarters it is not something to become complacent about.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:27:26 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

I used to work for MAFF (name shows how long ago) and we had to get rabies vaccinated because we had to PM animals dying in quarantine aqnd deal with illegal imports of unknown status. After a few years, though, my GP told me that pre-exposure vaccination was no longer available, as post exposure treatment is now so good that the vaccine was no longer necessary!

[/quote]

I was vaccinated at my GP surgery in 2007 as the practice I was working at did the work for the local quarantine kennel, I think DEFRA paid for it.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Dagmar Steele — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:59:08 GMT

Me thinks even the stricter rules that applied within the pet travel scheme until the beginning of this year would not have prevented some moron from smuggling a very cute puppy from Croatia through the Eurotunnel - unlikely but possible. But I do think you are right, every bit the controls are reduced makes it statistically more likely. I am based in Germany and I grew up with rabies being all around, I have never been vaccinated and am not to date. Nowadays Germany is rabies free as well, by the way. What would really worry me re the situation in the UK is the urban fox population and the way people live with them. Once the first dog with rabies gets smuggled into London and makes its way into the wilderness (still unlikely but who knows) you'll be confronted with a worst case scenario. I have watched programs on tv about people finding foxes in their children's beds, about feeding them in their gardens - this is gonna be fun once one of the animals gets infected! Pets have never been the major host of rabies, we have had a couple of smuggled in cases over the last few years which all stayed limited to that one individual, maybe due to the fact that there are very few dogs around not vaccinated against rabies. Over here you wouldn't have a problem to get vaccinated but usually you have to pay for it yourself. Post exposure vaccination is also available. I think you'd find out if you've been exposed as your patient will end up dead with suspicious symptoms. At least if you do SA work. If you have rabies present in wild animals in the countryside and work LA I would be more worried about missing the symptoms.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Bob Russell — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:26:10 GMT

The concern is that a case may not be diagnosed, a pet may die uninvestigated and a vet may have a bite wound - a ticking time bomb.

This is statistically very, very unlikely but with the steady reduction in any obvious controls and a huge susceptible population in the UK far from impossible.

Post-exposure treatment is only good if you know you have been exposed!

I suspect this is a risk the NHS are willing to take following a very thorough risk assessment!

I am sure our medical colleagues are prepared for human cases where the bite was inflicted during a trip to Asia but not at all prepared for one inflicted in Dorking!

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:17:43 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

Doctors huh? What do they know..... after all REAL doctors (aka vets) treat more than one species

[/quote]

I've got a t-shirt with this phrase on it...love it :)

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 20 Aug 2012 01:56:38 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

[quote user="Mike Dale"] I have advised all my colleagues to get vaccinated against rabies and been vaccinated myself. Currently it is free of charge on the NHS[/quote]

I have tried to get vaccinated; in this area the NHS direct you to a travel clinic run by the local school of tropical medicine. When I tried to book an appointment I was told that vaccines were only available to certified bat handlers, and I was not eligable even if I paid!

[/quote]

I think that's bx. Perhaps they were short of vaccine (there seem to be perennial shortages) and conserving stocks for their paying travellling customers.

Just tell 'em you're going on holiday to Asia.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Christopher Saul — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 23:50:14 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

[quote user="Mike Dale"] I have advised all my colleagues to get vaccinated against rabies and been vaccinated myself. Currently it is free of charge on the NHS[/quote]

[/quote]

Doctors huh? What do they know..... after all REAL doctors (aka vets) treat more than one species

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Sylvia Wilson — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 23:18:20 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

[quote user="Mike Dale"] I have advised all my colleagues to get vaccinated against rabies and been vaccinated myself. Currently it is free of charge on the NHS[/quote]

[/quote]

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Christopher Saul — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:29:53 GMT

[quote user="Mike Dale"] I have advised all my colleagues to get vaccinated against rabies and been vaccinated myself. Currently it is free of charge on the NHS[/quote]

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Mike Dale — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:40:24 GMT

Hi, One of my young colleagues was presented by "travellers" with a puppy purchased in a market in Belgium. Underage to travel, no documentation, probably no vaccination. My colleague attempted to detain the puppy and was threatened with violence; death, actually.

DEFRA were disinterested and referred him to Trading Standards whom he was able to contact after the weekend. They followed up rigorously but of course, days too late. Puppy and "traveller" were long gone into the countryside spreading goodness knows what disease.

The police were called during the threat-making. Someone from the police called back leisurely enquiring whether vets didn't get training in handling angry clients.

We live close to a major cross channel terminal. I have advised all my colleagues to get vaccinated against rabies and been vaccinated myself. Currently it is free of charge on the NHS who, it appears, are the only government agency recognising any sort of risk at all from this increasing illegal traffic.

Where were the Belgian port authorities? Where were the UK port authorities and where were the police when my relatively newly graduated colleague was dealing with death threats in a lock up branch surgery with just one receptionist for support?

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

James Laidlaw — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:31:38 GMT

I know people coming back who had passport stamped and signed and given wormer to give when they were coming back. Which they forgot to do until just before getting on the ferry. I assume this is the tip of the iceberg. If they don't have to be LVI, what kind of consequences are they IF they got found out? It's not going to affect their country, just the UK...

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

plantagenet — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:18:09 GMT

Just to fuel all our anxieties further - another client returned from a trip to France. She had presented her dog at a vet for the required worming. Failing to administer the medication, the vet stamped the passport anyway and told my client to do it later. What should I do? If it were a vet in this country, I would be very tempted to shop him. Luckily my client is honest and sensible and has had earache from me about importable disease, so she did treat the dog, but certainly not in front of the vet.

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 16 Aug 2012 10:34:53 GMT

Rabies isn't a disease I'd want to take any risks with

Wynne

Re: Increasing importation of dogs from Europe

Sarah Keir — Thu, 16 Aug 2012 10:12:18 GMT

You still need post-exposure treatment even if you are up to date with rabies vaccinations. How many of us would be 'bothered' to go to doctor/hospital if had a seemingly minor bite at work?

Sarah