Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Emma Cathcart — Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:56:10 GMT

I completed a small animal internship at the University of Glasgow. I knew the terms before I accepted the job, I was a post-graduate student receiving a tax-free stipend (mostly for the OOH work), held a student card, paid no council tax due to my student status (I lived in my own house rather than taking the rent-free, bills-free intern accommodation that was offered as we already owned it), walked to work every day, paid no student loans contributions for the year, paid no tax on my stipend and actually earned only slightly less per month of 'take home pay' as I did in my first new-grad job which appeared significantly more on paper. I worked long hours, especially on night shifts, but I learned a huge and invaluable amount in that year. I completely understand why people undertake further studies to advance their career and to enable them to gain qualifications that is often impossible to achieve outwith these referral hospitals. It is not something that everyone would be interested in doing, but those that do are all aware of the situation before taking on these positions.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

An On MRCVS — Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:11:47 GMT

Having just read the Vet Times I am left in disbelief with some of the claims on the front page article. The bit that got me in particular was:

“It (the BVU) claims postgraduates at some schools are forced to live on less than the minimum wage, while other colleges don’t pay maternity leave”.

Given postgraduates have decided to “return to the academic arena” they should accept (and I believe do accept) that they are effectively students. Therefore they should have no right to maternity allowance from the colleges. I wouldn’t expect maternity leave during a PhD or, heaven forbid, my A levels. Why should I expect this as an intern or resident? Am I missing something?

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

J G Wray — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 07:23:41 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]What's more, (in the past at least) some of these tax-avoiding clinical training posts have not been appropriately structured for approval by the relevant awarding body with the consequence that the trainee's time was wasted. Finally, there is something rather "unusual" in the status of a training post which on one hand is income tax exempt, but on the other involves the trainee in work that generated fee income for the employer.[/quote]

There are clinical training posts, called internships offered by equine practices in particular. These pay the aforementioned stipends and are time limited. Do they give the same standard of training that "interns" get from the Universities?Do they protect the interns working hours, particularly OOH?

I have always viewed equine practice, particularly orthopaedic and emergency, as a bit of a club. This is a club which regularly spits out partly trained internees, who effectively have the experience but little chance of progression and then move onto the next lot of cannon fodder to run the tedious bits at inconveninet times of the day and night.

Anyone going to stick up for these equine practices?

JGW

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

James Laidlaw — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 08:20:41 GMT

People aren't failing to stand by their side. What a ridiculous statement.

Some of the respondents sound like they have been through the situation you are describing and come out the other side without irrefutable facts and figures of how it has ruined their life. I have close friends who have done residencies and internships in the UK and abroad and while it's a hard slog for small pay, they also lack the responsibilities of their higher paid colleagues. Cases are under control of a clinician and there's not the pressure of the clients breathing down your neck, which makes a HUGE difference to the daily stress of veterinary work. Then, at the other end of what is only 3 years (I was at uni for 6 as a student and worked hard for clinics in my last 3 years for NO pay but, hey it's not the same thing, is it?) they can come out as a qualified specialist with the potential to earn significantly more than their general practising counterparts.

I don't think we need a union, and am not prepared to come anywhere close to supporting one that presents such frivolous details as one of the major challenges presented to veterinarians in this day and age.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Shams Mir — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:01:44 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I don't really mind, but normally press releases should be emailed to me for publication in our news section.

[/quote]

Sorry Arlo, it is too late for this one, but thank you for the guidance for the future.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Shams Mir — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:55:46 GMT

Reports about exploitation of post-graduate vets at UK veterinary schools have emerged previously in veterinary press, but BVU is the only organisation to have taken the steps to systematically investigate the matter,

The back bone of the press release is the "Junior Vets in Universities Survey Report", an eight-pages-long document, based mainly on the detailed information obtained from the seven veterinary schools under the freedom of information act.

Without a full indepth study of the irrefutable facts and figures, observations, conclusions and recommendations presented in the report, it is hard to imagine one can present a justiable review on the subject.

The exclusive objective of the BVU is to look after the interests and rights of the veterinary professionals in the UK and wherever it will find that these are being compromised, it will not hesitate to flag up the issues and work constructively to improve the situation.

The only objective of the report under discussion is to help improve the welfare of the junior vets at universities. The irony is that most of their fellow professionals responding to this thread unintentionally find it hard to stand on their side.

Nobody is really to blame, except the minset of our profession. The only way to change minds is to win the hearts. There, we must persevere.

Thanks.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Andrew Kent — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:19:24 GMT

Prior to getting my residency I visited a number of institutions that offer them and it seems to me on the whole that this is creating a problem that is not really there. I don't see how on 7 responses (out of hundreds of interns/residents) you can feel that you can produce a meaningful demand.

There is no doubt that some residents are unhappy with their pay and conditions, but as others have said we know what we are signing up to prior to starting.

That said there is one institution that I think does take advantage of residents - the problem is that despite this it is still inundated with applicants - so has no real pressure to change. My feeling would be that this whole process is probably fuelled by residents at this one institution rather than being reflective of the majority.

Yes in an ideal world we would be paid a private practice salary, but in reality the funding for this doesn't exist and so if that were to happen the number of training posts available would be much lower.

I also feel that the press release/conclusions has been written by somebody who doesn't really understand the system - the vast majority of the details of training is now governed by the relevant european college and so not directly attributable to the vet school concerned.

I wasn't a resident at the time this survey was carried out but I don't feel it is representative of the vast majority of hard working residents in the UK today and as such doesn't really have any weight behind it.

Andy

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Mark Holmes — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:32:37 GMT

It sounds like the garbage peddled by Len McClusky and his ilk - sabre rattling because it serves those who's careers are depending on sabre rattling. Frankly if you advertise a job saying you will be paid in soft fruit, have 3 days a year holiday two of which must be spent standing on your head and somebody takes it. THAT'S THEIR BUSINESS. I have issues if jobs are mis represented, particularly as some people make huge personal sacrifices to take a job and cannot readily change but if a job is as it was described so what?

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Bob Russell — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:28:06 GMT

It has to be decided whether these post-grads are students or staff.

Students don't get paid, employees do (very simplistic though). As these are post-grad qualifications the vets involved are students and any payment is a way of making it possible for them to continue their studies.

Any 'profit' generated by them presumably remains within the vet school.

They know what they are getting into and if they cannot afford to take up the positions have to be like the rest of us - working in the outside world!

No point in trying to compare the pay and conditions of post-grad vets with their medical colleagues as there is no NHS employer (tax payer) to pick up the tab!

Over the last year I have lost any respect I had for UNISON and this smacks of UNISON claptrap to me!

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:15:08 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]Unite Press Release[/quote]

Hi Shams

I don't really mind, but normally press releases should be emailed to me for publication in our news section. Perhaps you could ask whoever is in charge of media @ BVU to email press releases to press@jcamedia.com (which goes to Veterinary Practice magazine as well), or support@vetsurgeon.org, which just comes here.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

sarah mason — Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:55:31 GMT

Like everything else in life-specialist training is a choice. If you can't afford to do it-that is most-likley because you have dependents which unless you are taking care of a sick/elderly relative means you made a choice to have children early in your career. Lots of people would say they "couldn't afford" to go to university/vet school/become an olympic athlete.....insert lifechoice here....but there are an awful lot of other people in the world who will find a way to achieve what they want. In fact some residents do have children and many have mortgages.

In perspective the UK median salary is around the mid twenty K. Minimum wage you would take home less that the lowest paid intern after tax with no free accomodation. Millions of families in this country raise families on less than junior vets are paid and they mainly have little chance of increasing that income. Ultimately we take 4 years out to earn little money with the trade off of the opportunity to earn a lot more in the future.......kind of similar to getting a degree in the first place.

Obviously I don't agree with exploitation of unpaid clinicians but the pay and conditions are clearly outlined in the job adverts and at the interviews for those of us who are in paid positions

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Rob Loxley — Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:27:39 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]If you think it is alright for post-graduate vets who have 5-6 years of professional education and possibly a few years of practice experience behind them to "work" for "free"[/quote]

Have you asked those that have taken on such internships and residencies - a quick straw poll of those I know who have was very positive, getting them on in their careers and none complained that the money wasn't enough to live on for the time (remember many are tax free stipends and often accommodation is provided).
I would therefore ask whether the BVU's stance has come about because of complaints by those vets who undertake these positions (though I'm sure if asked all of us would like to be paid more money ), or is an example of fixing a problem that doesn't really exist?

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Shams Mir — Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:09:04 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Shams Mir"]Unite is Britain and Ireland’s largest trade union with 1.5 million members working across all sectors of the economy. The general secretary is Len McCluskey[/quote]

Can you tell me how many paid up members of Unite are veterinary surgeons in practice?

[/quote]

Dear Malcolm,

Your personal question, unrelated to the content of this thread, deserves a response. I will check about that with Unite.

Regards,

Shams

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Shams Mir — Sun, 12 Aug 2012 15:51:54 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Three years working for free with specialists and coming out with a Diploma is a very worthy thing, if you can afford to do it!

[/quote]

What about those who cannot afford to do it?

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

In this case I suggest you are bothering about an issue that doesn't exist.

[/quote]

If you think it is alright for post-graduate vets who have 5-6 years of professional education and possibly a few years of practice experience behind them to "work" for "free"(for institutions which depend on their work and financially gain from it), it is not surprising that you think the issue "doesn't exist"!

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 12 Aug 2012 01:21:48 GMT

I went to the website and read the document. The SEVEN individual respondents isn't exactly overwhelming.

I stand by the point they know what they are getting into. Have you looked at these students who do these programs and lifetime earnings? By progressing their career and moving into private practice I bet they don't go hungry.Three years working for free with specialists and coming out with a Diploma is a very worthy thing, if you can afford to do it!

I am broadly in favour of a vet union (I even sent a small donation when you were getting set up) but the association with Unite and concentrating on such silly minor issues is going to get you nowhere. If the extent of the union activities are press releases demanding things then I expect you won't be around for long. In this case I suggest you are bothering about an issue that doesn't exist.

The website and press releases remind me of a badly behaved toddler - but I WANT a biscuit.........

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:31:37 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]Unite is Britain and Ireland’s largest trade union with 1.5 million members working across all sectors of the economy. The general secretary is Len McCluskey[/quote]

Dr Mir,

Quite some time ago I attempted to find out exactly how many veterinary surgeons were actually paid up members of unite. You may recall that I sent you a PM with the question. I also emailed several of the "contacts" on the unite website. I got no response.

Can you tell me how many paid up members of Unite are veterinary surgeons in practice?

Malcolm Ness

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 11 Aug 2012 13:36:37 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]demands[/quote]

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Shams Mir — Sat, 11 Aug 2012 13:04:36 GMT

[quote user="sarah mason"]

The pay is also more than stated in the post and actually the figures quoted in this post do not agree with the findings in the survey....

[/quote]

Just to put the record straight, unlike the actual Report, the post (Press Release) does not mention the salary of Interns.

The Interns and Senior Clinical Training Scholars at Liverpool are luckiest of all the post-graduate vets at any of the UK veterinary schools, as they are appointed like employees and enjoy better remunerations and many other benefits.

The Report (accessible via the link provided in the press release above) demands all other vet schools to follow suit.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

sarah mason — Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:00:10 GMT

· junior clinical training scholars work most of the time in clinics, including out of hours, for as little as £12,500 per year (with free student accommodation) at Glasgow to a maximum of £20,000 at Liverpool (no accommodation).

· the annual leave allowance (excluding bank holidays) for junior scholars varies from zero at Liverpool to 25 days at Edinburgh. Paid sick leave entitlement varies from zero at Edinburgh to 4-8 weeks at London. Only Nottingham provide for paid maternity leave; however, at Cambridge this is considered on an individual basis

· at Liverpool, the senior clinical training scholars are enrolled as employees and enjoy all employment related benefits. The remunerations for the first year vary from the lowest at London (about £15,000) to the highest at Liverpool (about £26,000).

As an intern at Liverpool I had 28 days holiday between 4 weeks annual leave, bank holiday and university closed days and all interns there at least in Small Animal get the same. The pay is also more than stated in the post and actually the figures quoted in this post do not agree with the findings in the survey....

As a resident I also get 28 days holiday. Yes the hours are long and the pay is less than in private practice but I chose to do this for the career benefits. It is very nice to work in a well equiped hospital, surrounded by expert colleagues and keen students.

When I was in private practice I did not get paid extra for ooh, or for teaching students, and I didn't have sick pay........

Understandably some people will not enjoy these jobs, but they are a pathway to specialism. Maybe only the unhappy people filled the survey in? Maybe some of the vet schools need to improve their salaries and conditions for interns and residents but I do not feel in any way exploited currently, the benefits of a residency for me outweigh the bad parts

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Tim Cheyne — Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:56:46 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]All the European, UK and US awarding bodies insist that a diploma-worthy residency lasts at least 3 years [/quote]

I am surprised but perhaps 'residency' is the keynote that requires definition. In the past, suitably qualified post-graduates involved in research at the university from which they obtained their first degree could submit the research for a Ph.D after two years provided that they did only a stipulated maximum of 'other' work (as demonstrators, for example). 'Ten hours' springs to mind but I cannot remember whether that was per week or per month (probably the latter). Full-time students, with no extra duties, could submit for an M.A.(or equivalent) in one year, but these were largely taught courses with a dissertation.

Very rarely were these employees of the college, who could submit for a Ph.D only after at least three years. Few certificates or diplomas were available at that time so comparisons are not possible.

Tim.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 09 Aug 2012 08:41:43 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]They do a year or two almost as a 'fast track' to a cert/diploma.[/quote]

Therein lies some of the problem. All the European, UK and US awarding bodies insist that a diploma-worthy residency lasts at least 3 years - there is no "fast0track". What's more, (in the past at least) some of these tax-avoiding clinical training posts have not been appropriately structured for approval by the relevant awarding body with the consequence that the trainee's time was wasted. Finally, there is something rather "unusual" in the status of a training post which on one hand is income tax exempt, but on the other involves the trainee in work that generated fee income for the employer.

Those who operate such schemes are confident that they are OK but I, for one, would not be terribly surprised if somebody gets their fingers burnt.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Sylvia Wilson — Wed, 08 Aug 2012 18:58:18 GMT

It is fairly clear that interns, clinical training scholars, etc who are not employees of the Universities are 'workers' and as such are entitled to some protection under employment law. They are certainly covereed by the Working Time Regulations and other Health and Safety legislation, as well as by anti-discrimination laws. Most will also be entitled to the National Minimum Wage. Where accommodation is provided, only a relatively small amount can be deducted from the NMW to cover its cost.

Sylvia Wilson

Practice Perfect

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Tim Cheyne — Wed, 08 Aug 2012 18:13:42 GMT

It seems that conditions have changed since my time, admittedly quite some while ago. Then post-graduate students were supported by various grant awarding bodies to whom they were responsible for the time that they spent and the quality of the work that they produced while attempting to gain a further qualification. The college provided facilities (sometimes for a fee) and often, though not invariably, guidance and supervision. They were not employees of the college, though sometimes seconded from other organisations, and, apart from H & S requirements, etc, the college had no obligation vis-a-vis 'rights'.

Other graduates, veterinary and other disciplines, were employees of the college though without tenure for a probationary period (commonly three years) and enjoyed the same rights of vacation, superannuation, sick leave, etc, regardless of whether they were involved in research or not. When they were involved in research, either for personal advancement or as part of a combined research effort, that research was commonly supported by grants quite separate from salary. Taking into consideration the various benefits, employment in the colleges compared quite reasonably with employment in general practice.

Unless conditions have changed radically, I wonder whether there is some confusion between the terms post-graduate students and employees.

Tim.

Re: Stop exploiting post-graduate vets, universities told

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 08 Aug 2012 17:40:26 GMT

I did a '*** packet' calculation when I graduated and I worked out I would have had similar money in my pocket at the end of the day. These incomes (at RVC anyway) are tax free. By the time accommodation etc was paid for. If you costed in the value of the CPD that they get for free they do very well out of it.

It is an individual choice and no-one is making them do it. They do a year or two almost as a 'fast track' to a cert/diploma. The value in terms of their career may well be worth it. If I wanted to be a small animal specialist then that's the way I would have gone.