Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Sylvia Wilson — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 18:42:09 GMT

Hello, first of all, apologies for the delay in replying but I have only just seen your post.

Secondly, where I am coming from - I am a vet who also has Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development qualifications and who specialises in helping practices and individual vets with personnel problems.

So, my advice:

1. Before raising any official grievance, make every effort to sit down with your boss and tell them clearly what you perceive the problem to be. If at all possible, have a colleague present as a witness and ask them to make notes of what is said, or record the conversation. (Most phones now have voice recorders.) But you MUST tell them that the conversation is being recorded, otherwise if it does come to Tribunal, you will not be able to use the recording as evidence. Listen to their reply and reasons for it and try to reach an agreement. Sitting down and discussing the situation rationally is your best chance of achieving a satisfactory solution, but is also essential if proceedings later become necessary.

2. After the meeting, write to them, summarising what was said and any agreements reached. Again, this step is essential if subsequent action is to succeed.

3. If you can't resolve the problem, you will need to gather evidence of what has happened. This may be letters, rotas, etc, plus statements from colleagues or even clients if they have seen discriminatory behaviour taking place. You should also write a summary statement of what has happened to you. Do this as soon as possible before you forget the details. Be as specific as possible, giving dates, places, times and the names of any other people present. It is best to do this before raising a grievance as you may find that things suddenly become unavailable.

4. Dig out your contract of employment and find the section on grievances. If there isn't one, the law assumes a basic procedure that you can find on the ACAS website. There is no minimum period of employment before you can claim unlawful discrimination.

5. Follow the grievance procedure. Make sure that you do everything required of you by the procedure so that they cannot claim that you haven't followed it.

6. Continue to gather evidence if discrimination is still occurring. Keep a diary of any further incidents.

7. If you only take Ordinary Maternity Leave (i.e. while you are receiving maternity pay), you are entitled to return to your exact job. If you take Additional (unpaid) Maternity Leave, you are entitled to return to an equivalent job, but not necessarily exactly the same job. You do continue to accrue holiday entitlement during maternity leave.

8. If you feel that the situation has become so impossible that you must resign, make sure that your resignation letter states clearly the reasons for it, including that you believe you have suffered discrimination. Without this you cannot claim constructive dismissal. You do not have to resign to claim unlawful discrimination. I would advise you not to resign unless you absolutely have to.

Without knowing the details, this is all rather general advice. Please feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss in more detail.

Sylvia Wilson BVSc MBA PGDipMHR MRCVS

www.practice-perfect.co.uk

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Anthony Todd — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:48:02 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"][quote user="Helen Wallace"]I'm currently providing maternity cover. I have been told that there may be a permanent job for me at the end if the practice continues to expand or the individual concerned does not want to come back.[/quote][/quote]

What I can say ,in my experience, is that almost all employees on mat leave, wait until the very very last minute before telling the employer they won't be back [sometimes only when we enquire again, having got a request for a reference from the next employer!!].

Of course the mat employee has always assured us that she'll be back.

The other thing is the female employee who is taken on full time then gets pregnant in a matter of weeks.....

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Vicky Vine — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:07:07 GMT

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Sorry for coming into this conversation a bit late but I wanted to let you know that as well as the free BVA legal helpline we also have a free mediation service – where a trained mediator can attend a meeting between you and your employer to mediate the situation and ideally resolve it before it gets to tribunal level. And if that doesn’t work we also have a free legal representation service for employee members. It essentially offers everything a union would offer – like accompanying you to disciplinary meetings and representing you at a tribunal – but unlike many unions we can offer you these legal services from day one of your membership. You can find more information on it at www.bva.co.uk/legal.

I hope you’d never need it but we’ve also got a short video for members on what to do if facing a disciplinary here - http://www.bva.co.uk/vetsTv/2795.aspx

I hope that helps. Good luck with your situation.

Vicky

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:25:37 GMT

Normally I would not be overly bothered about this sort of comment from a fellow vet but Neal is an Industry member and this seems to be part of his particular field of expertise therefore I consider his idea of 'awful advice' to be of more than 'average' importance!

I am not at all worried about diplomacy - half the fun of this site is getting undiplomatic responses!

Any knowledgeable advice, especially given FOC is an offer to be jumped at!

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 08:12:14 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]I think Neal's coming in for a bit of heavy flak here[/quote]

It is interesting how two different people can read completely different things into the same sentence.

All I see is Bob and Evelyn quite reasonably asking Neal to expand on the 'awful advice' comment, which seems perfectly reasonable to me, and certainly no reason for Neal or anyone else to take offence!

Personally, I think anyone who spots what they think is an inaccuracy in this forum should ALWAYS try and correct it. Accurate information should always take precedence over the risk of bruising an ego (i.e. pointing out to someone that they are wrong).

That said, there are probably more diplomatic ways of doing it than prefacing your correction by telling someone they have given truly awful advice!!! Not least because we each have our own interpretation of the meaning of 'truly awful' (it might be better to use more precise language).

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

james herriot lied — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:29:04 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

With all due respect, this is a forum. If some wrong advice has been offered it would be useful to all to know what it was. No reason why it should create a furore.

[/quote]

I think Neal's coming in for a bit of heavy flak here, which is a tad harsh. He might have chosen his words better, but there was a bit of crappy advice in there (mainly mine, I suspect ). Identifying these bits would, at worst, cause a furore; at best a bunch of hurt feelings and a reduced tendency to post. Having somebody who does know what they're talking about on the forum is always welcome, and I think Neal's offer of private, FOC, advice is a very generous one: I hope the OP has taken up the offer.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:50:24 GMT

[quote user="Neal Palk"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Neal Palk"]Some great advice in the replies and some truly awful.[/quote]

Care to be more specific?

[/quote]

I don't see any real benefit to the OP in picking apart some of the advice given thereby creating a furore between members. I have offered my help to the OP, based upon my experience in this field and 'legal qualifications' are not a pre-requisite of giving advice (cue awful advice example.....). I'm amazed at the reception an offer of help to a fellow veterinary surgeon provokes, but the offer remains nonetheless.

[/quote]

With all due respect, this is a forum. If some wrong advice has been offered it would be useful to all to know what it was. No reason why it should create a furore. That's what phrases like "with all due respect" are for.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:14:36 GMT

If your experience suggests some truly awful advice then we would all appreciate (for further reference) what it is so we can avoid making some particularly expensive legal mistakes.

You have made a statement that seems curious and Evelyn simply asked for clarification!

I accept legal qualifications are not required. Many of us have been in similar situations from different sides so have experience of this type of situation also. We have recommended professional legal advice be sought!

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Neal Palk — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:05:23 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Neal Palk"]Some great advice in the replies and some truly awful.[/quote]

Care to be more specific?

[/quote]

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:38:29 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Neal Palk"]Some great advice in the replies and some truly awful.[/quote]

Care to be more specific?

[/quote]

Where is the truly awful advice? Most seems pretty good to me. The earlier posts were made without much information about the actual issues involved and still make good general sense to me!

The advice from everyone is in line with legal advice I have been given in the recent past from both insurance related legal advisers and my local solicitor.

As far as I can see the only advice that does not match this is the option to walk away from a practice and get a new job. This is a choice we all have!

I assume Mr Palk has legal qualifications if he is offering professional advice even if FOC!

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 16:52:10 GMT

[quote user="Neal Palk"]Some great advice in the replies and some truly awful.[/quote]

Care to be more specific?

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Neal Palk — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:11:08 GMT

Some great advice in the replies and some truly awful. I've worked in human resource management for over 25 years and whilst there's something new almost every day, I've had a far amount of experience.

Without the detail no commentary can be very incisive. Suffice it to say that the communication (both ways) between the parties is key and recourse to law, dispute/grievance etc should be a future option. As you are an anonymous member I can't contact you directly - however the offer is there to talk through your situation (FoC) if you want to get in touch. Most of these situations can be resolved amicable, but the devil is in the detail.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Mike Martin — Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:24:17 GMT

As others have said, there's free advice available. ACAS would be the best option. Link

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:16:14 GMT

There's so much protection for pregnant employees that I think it would have to be something like the entire business going into liquidation before the employer would get away with it

Wynne

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Utlendigur — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 22:57:59 GMT

[quote user="Helen Wallace"]I'm currently providing maternity cover. I have been told that there may be a permanent job for me at the end if the practice continues to expand or the individual concerned does not want to come back.[/quote]

I must admit that scenario did cross my mind. Adverts for maternity cover often say "possibility of permanent position" and I wonder how many are the employer just trying to make the post more attractive. Plus you never know how people will feel months down the line, we've had two non-vet staff who've said they were intending to come back then resigned at the end of their maternity leave, and another who requested part time work. Also it isn't illegal to make someone redundant during maternity leave or pregnancy, provided it is a genuine redundency (ie not replaced within a certain timeframe - can't remember how long the period is though, sorry) and they're not being singled out because they are pregnant/on maternity leave.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Helen Wallace — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 22:41:09 GMT

Speaking from the 3rd side of the fence, I'm currently providing maternity cover. I have been told that there may be a permanent job for me at the end if the practice continues to expand or the individual concerned does not want to come back. My employer has been extremely clear all along that this is only a possibility and at present I am looking at this as a long term locum rather than building future plans.

They cannot replace you if you want to come back. The law is very clear, it is YOUR job. I would also say that personally, if I was offered a long term position at the expense of the person I am covering for I would not accept. I would feel very uncomfortable, expect all my colleagues to hate me for taking X's job and I wouldn't want to work for an employer I felt I couldn't trust.

If someone is covering for you at the moment it might be worth talking to them informally as well. If my name is familiar (the power of coincidence) do feel free to message or ring me

I've been in situations in the past where working conditions were being changed and sometimes you can get an amicable solution, sometimes you can't but if you keep talking the chances are higher. Good luck xx

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:50:23 GMT

Maternity related issues are a nightmare for employers and this is precisely why the rules are so strict!

For many (especially small businesses) the disruption caused by a member of staff becoming pregnant can be massive. It is not news an employer wants to hear! A key member of staff going on maternity leave nearly brought us to our knees! It took a long time to recover financially because of the problems we had with staffing (a very long story that still brings me to tears!!!)

That aside the protection for a pregnant member of staff is gold plated and the fines for discrimination in this situation are almost unlimited!

Negotiation, goodwill and understanding is needed here!

ACAS/BVA helpline etc will give you the assistance you need but discrimination on grounds of pregnancy is a big No!No!

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

plantagenet — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:08:44 GMT

I'm not at all condoning what your employer is doing, but just have a thought for what maternity leave can do for a business. I currently have 2 members of staff off on mat leave and, although I have wonderful replacement staff, they come with a price tag - in no way covered by the extra 3% I get in compensation. It took months if not years to recover financially from the last mat leave. This time, in the present fiscal atmosphere, it is almost crippling.

Do I think its fair? No, but I do stick to the law.

Would I use a technicality to ease my situation? I hope no,t but I'd be tempted.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Cat Henstridge — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:36:24 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] Unfortunately though I think this is an assumption that is often made about people that do end up dealing with these issues formally, and mud sticks.[/quote]

No it doesn't! Honestly I meant what I said, this profession is small but not that small and also if you have a legitimate grievance your side will come out as well and they may end up looking bad for treating you so poorly! Having recently been pregnant myself I know the stresses you are under, especially when considering returning to work but in this situation you hold all the cards. Any move to get rid of you or change your job has to be done super carefully to make sure you don't have cause to complain.

A good friend of mine started a job at the same time as a male, same age, same length qualified colleague, and they both worked in the practice with no issues for a couple of years, She then got pregnant and told the bosses, the very next day they offered the male vet a partnership and made life so difficult/unpleasant for her that she handed her notice in rather than go back after her maternity leave. It was clear what was going on and at the time, pregnant, fairly young and, like you, concerned about her reputation, she just left and didn't make a fuss. She now regrets this, both because of the way she was treated and also she spoke to an employment lawyer friend a year or so later who told her she would have had an excellent case for discrimination. This practice has quite a misogynistic reputation locally and no-one who has heard this story has ben surprised or blamed her in any way.

I really feel for you and I am so sorry you have to deal with this while pregnant and if walking away means less stress for you and bump then do but don't think the your reputation will be in any way tainted for sticking up for yourself!

Cat

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:22:20 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Essentially they will result in me being replaced whilst i am on maternity leave.[/quote]

You have fallen lucky, being pregnant gives you more protection than a black, disabled lesbian!

They HAVE to keep your job open and you can have up to a year off. If I remember correctly you still accrue paid holiday. Any benefits you normally get continue during your pregnancy (ie if you have a practice phone, car, house).

Linky

Do they intend to sack you and replace you when pregnant? Are you already pregnant? What exactly are they trying to bring in because it sounds very illegal.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

An On MRCVS — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 00:15:06 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] Does anyone have experience of going through this type of situation?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Can it end well?[/quote]

I think it can, if you follow the excellent advice already given.

Don't do what I did and just bottle it all up inside or rant at the wife.

By the way; you mentioned "discrimination" (I presume you mean unfair discrimination). I understand you don't wish to go into details, but would this be discrimination against your race? Or your sex? Or what? Because nothing puts an employer's back up more than an accusation of "discrimination" when what they are trying to do is act sensibly and fairly for all concerned.

[/quote] I think it counts as discrimination in a legal sense because I am on mat leave; please don't get the impression that this is some kind of petulant whinge about trivial unfairness; I am not that kind of person! Unfortunately though I think this is an assumption that is often made about people that do end up dealing with these issues formally, and mud sticks.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

An On MRCVS — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 23:59:05 GMT

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions, in spite of my vagueness! I am not about to jump off the deep end with formal proceedings of any sort until I have tried to deal with things in an informal manner, however I don't think my employers actually realise the potential implications of the changes they are making, both for them and me, and a number of my colleagues. Essentially they will result in me being replaced whilst i am on maternity leave. I guess this is a common theme in vet practices though, I have certainly encountered many other examples of poor/illegal staff management during my time in practice. I also think that it is sad that more often than not these situations either result in staff just leaving, or if that is not an option, putting up with bad working conditions. I am not a trouble maker or someone trying to set right the wrongs of the profession, but I cannot accept these changes. I suppose my question was whether anyone has had to deal with these king of issues in a formal manner and come out the other side with their nerves and reputation intact. Reading other non-vet forums it seems that the consensus is that it's not really worth the trauma involved.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

plantagenet — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:55:58 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Most vets are pretty lousy people managers.[/quote]

Many of us are not brilliant employees either - too much of individualists.

I am not suggesting you have done anything wrong in this case, though.

My advice would be just give notice and move on. I've always managed to get a resignation in before being sacked, but it's been close. Its a small world and a lot of future employers would be very frightened of you if you've taken a previous employer to the cleaners.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 13:31:33 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] Does anyone have experience of going through this type of situation?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Can it end well?[/quote]

I think it can, if you follow the excellent advice already given.

Don't do what I did and just bottle it all up inside or rant at the wife.

Re: Raising a grievance/ employment tribunals

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 12:48:55 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]That said, like anybody I do love the sound of my own voice when giving advice........ [/quote]

It looks like pretty good advice to me.