Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

David Mills — Sun, 29 Jul 2012 15:09:48 GMT

I thought all this would be quite obvious. The only people who are legally at risk in this are the importers i.e. the individuals who buy such stuff. There'll be some disclaimer somewhere in the seller agreement that the buyer must comply with local law, where appropriate.

Amazon are being used as a platform only. Amazon is based in Luxembourg with 'fulfilment centres' (distributors - but fulfilment helps wipe millions off the tax liability: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-fulfilment-less-tax-uk-activities) in EU centres (either their own or 3rd parties). The VMD has no powers over these activities whatsoever. Further, I suspect the uptake is so low as to be negligible.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

An On MRCVS — Sun, 29 Jul 2012 12:07:33 GMT

Not so.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0089EPHO8/ref=s9_simh_se_p199_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=auto-no-results-center-1&pf_rd_r=62BFC40C2E36499590F6&pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_p=240112507&pf_rd_i=tiacil

A rose by any other name...

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 28 Jul 2012 23:02:47 GMT

A recent trawl through Amazon using various keywords such as malaseb, aurizon, tiacil etc - draws a blank! It seems they have withdrawn support fr these sellers, perhaps the VMD, when kicked in their bureaucratic rear by the Vet Times can actually accomplish something more than artificially driving prices up be encouraging me-too drugs and frightening practitioners who might want to use cheaper generics....

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Bob Russell — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:51:04 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Colin is right Something is only a crime if it's illegal where it's being performed So they can legally send drugs here-it's the customer who's the criminal

Wynne

[/quote]

It is only a crime if you are in the country to get caught!

Amazon and Ebay will only comply if they are pushed into it. A sale is a sale for them.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:06:43 GMT

Could we adopt the Chinese approach...........?

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:48:14 GMT

Colin is right Something is only a crime if it's illegal where it's being performed So they can legally send drugs here-it's the customer who's the criminal

Wynne

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Bob Russell — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:43:59 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Bose"]

[quote user="Emma Cooper"]livid at Amazon though, they're a big multinational and you'd think they'd care a bit more about what they're selling - or at least their image...[/quote]

Weren't they in the news recently for paying only 1% tax or similar? Their image is really suffering at the moment!

[/quote]

By being based in Luxembourg!

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

HMC — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:29:40 GMT

[quote user="Emma Cooper"]livid at Amazon though, they're a big multinational and you'd think they'd care a bit more about what they're selling - or at least their image...[/quote]

Weren't they in the news recently for paying only 1% tax or similar? Their image is really suffering at the moment!

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Colin Cameron — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:59:32 GMT

My understanding is that it is quite legal for these foreign companies to supply the product but it is illegal for a person in this country to receive them as they are the ones who are importing the product. This was the advice given to me last year when one of my clients purchased a POM flea product from a UK based website and 'phone number and it arrived from Bermuda. It seems that drug control in this country is rapidly becoming farcical but we, as Vets. are becoming submeged in beaurocratic control of every thing we do. Someone in the powers that be has got a funny sense of something, and it's not humour or fair play.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Bob Russell — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:20:26 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"][quote user="Stephen Courtney"]I'd suggest contacting the VMD next[/quote][/quote]

Useless doesn't come near it - they just don't seem to care.

[/quote]

They have enough staff to spout a lot of hot air but not enough to truly regulate. This is probably a little harsh since the departure of Prof Dean who was very keen to talk tough and when I have spoken to them more recently I have found the staff polite and as helpful as they can be.

The manufacturers should be contacted as well. They have far more money and clout to sit on Amazon. The VMD have worked quite hard with Ebay but a lot more needs to be done to block these sites.

Emma, I suspect the VMD may have limited clout over Ebay or Amazon as they are based abroad (Luxembourg I think).

Anyone tried Amazon for Viagra yet?

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Emma Cooper — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:19:48 GMT

I've done an update on this issue for VN Times (another in VT to follow) - after getting a flurry of contact from vets and nurses picking up POM-Vs...(picked up Advocate, Stronghold, Malaseb, Milbemax, Easotic, various versions of POM-V Frontline etc.).

In previous discussions with the VMD about foreign sites selling into the UK they have always stressed they (and the Home Office) only have powers over UK registered sites. Therefore I'd think Amazon (and ebay.co.uk, who I think are selling the odd product too) should be hauled over the coals.

I'm chasing the VMD and Amazon again. Not too surprised at the VMD's (current lack of) comment, livid at Amazon though, they're a big multinational and you'd think they'd care a bit more about what they're selling - or at least their image...

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Bob Russell — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:14:36 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]I'd suggest contacting the VMD next[/quote]

Yes, someone's breaching the Cascade and, depending on their country of residence, will be either jailed, shot or hung.

Certainly, if it was any of us in the UK, that would be the penalty.

[/quote]

Many of the POM-V medicines are available over the counter in pet shops in Thailand. Most human ones are available as well (oddly I was unable to buy Piriton because of its sedating effects!).

Many of these are counterfeit (and good copies at that) as there is a very large industry in 'copy' medicines there. Despite the comments that the product looked genuine I suspect it was not!

Client education is key and I have suggested clients might be happier at another practice in the past for inappropriate acquisition of POM's.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Tim Cheyne — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:58:52 GMT

Quotes from the Wilder Store website <http://www.wilderstore.com/customer-service/>

"Wilder Store is a small custom company based on Spain…..focused on selling treatments, medicines, vitamins and supplements for birds, pigeons, parrots, dogs and other supplies. ……We do not sell, trade, or otherwise transfer to outside parties your personally identifiable information……. We may also release your information when we believe release is appropriate to comply with the law, enforce our site policies, or protect ours or others rights, property, or safety. ……Wilder Store is a brand of: MES LTD London, UK "

So they claim to comply with the law (on demand?) but what law, EU law?...and does it have similar provisions to UK law regarding supply of POMs?

I have not satisfactorily located MES LTD and the relationship with Amazon is not clear, partnership, franchise, but probably simply a distributor.

Tim.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Tim Cheyne — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 05:27:43 GMT

Thanks, Joyce, but usually these companies claim to have a privacy policy. If the VMD were able to obtain a list of persons supplied it suggests to me that they can put some pressure on these companies. I suppose that the letter from the VMD was genuine and not the precursor for a scam?

Tim.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Joyce Whitehead — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:42:10 GMT

Well the Times article (which I can't link to as it is subscription only) implies that the names were on a list presumably obtained from the company involved. And my non vet friend said that the letter said that although they could prosecute they were not intending to at this stage unless further info came to light. (presumably evidence of reselling or similar). Sorry for lack of paragraphs, I'm on my phone sheltering away from the football and also away from the computer!

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Tim Cheyne — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:35:17 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]One of my friends admitted to me on Friday that she had received a letter from the VMD regarding the purchase of a non uk Pom drug for her horse[/quote]

Interesting, from where do they obtain this information? I assume that she is not a vet, so does this mean that they can take action against customers, not just vets?

Tim.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Joyce Whitehead — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:06:30 GMT

One of my friends admitted to me on Friday that she had received a letter from the VMD regarding the purchase of a non uk Pom drug for her horse (she thinks dermobion for mud fever). She is mortified as she had no idea it was illegal or a Pom. The VMD say they are currently only taking action against large importers but she has to sign to say she acknowledges the letter. There is an article in yesterday's times magazine by Melanie Reid about exactly the same situation. So sometimes the VMD do act, albeit several years later.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Tim Cheyne — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:15:34 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]Surely if they are advertising on Amazon.co.uk (as opposed to .com) they have to abide by UK regulations? After all, they are advertising to a UK market. Same with ebay.co.uk.[/quote]

Not necessarily; as far as I know there are those two Amazon sites and both/either will despatch items worldwide subject to the import regulations of the recipient country. They do not have geographically restricted markets. Customers choose to deal with whichever is most convenient for one reason or another, currency, courier services, and even competitive prices. I have dealt with both, for books not medicines I hasten to add, and have had no difficulty in having purchases (apart from Kindle) sent to the Middle East.

Tim.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Tim Cheyne — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:04:52 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]someone's breaching the Cascade and, depending on their country of residence, will be either jailed, shot or hung.[/quote]

I sympathise with the feeling but surely it is a customer (I choose that word rather than 'client') that is 'breaching' the cascade, not a vet; are customers subject to the cascade regulation? Also you seem to assume that the cascade applies widely outside the UK; I am not sure that it does. This compounds the difficulty of taking action against internet prescriptions. I wonder about the quality and authenticity of the products being offered for sale. That might bear investigation.

Tim.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Alet Engelbrecht — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:33:15 GMT

Surely if they are advertising on Amazon.co.uk (as opposed to .com) they have to abide by UK regulations? After all, they are advertising to a UK market. Same with ebay.co.uk.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:18:09 GMT

Hardly surprising though. If they were bothered about regulations, they wouldn't be selling POMs on Amazon. You could try pointing out that it's your country's regulations you're concerned with, not theirs, but I doubt the response would be any different. The only thing that would make a difference would be for people with some legal clout to compel Amazon and their like to close down the relevant accounts. I'm not holding my breath.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Utlendigur — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:17:36 GMT

I emailed the store through amazon and got this back...

"First we are not based on UK, so legal requirements are different. Second these medications are shipped with legal forms authorizing its export outside our country. Third we provide prescription and recommendation with medications if one customer needs it. 4 we supply vets around the world with no problem and we always in legal market according to regulations in our country. Some vaccines and other POM-V medications are shipped only if customer send to us the prescription using the attachment here o by email. So please, do not tell us that we are doing Illegal and irresponsible actions if you do not have any proof or if you unknown our country regulations"

Nice

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

plantagenet — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:07:46 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"][quote user="Stephen Courtney"]I'd suggest contacting the VMD next[/quote][/quote]

Useless doesn't come near it - they just don't seem to care.

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Utlendigur — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:02:05 GMT

The store seems to be something called Wilderstore and if you go onto their "shopfront" their stock includes things like baytril and marbocyl - at a time when vets are being told not to use fluorquinolones as first line antibiotics where possible, it's ridiculous that the client can just go online and buy what they like. Also available are cephalexin and incurin...

If it was a real as opposed to virtual store I suspect the VMD would act. Maybe it's time for hefty fines against internet marketplaces that allow illegal sales - that's the only thing that would get them to monitor sites

Re: Amazon selling Prescription Veterinary Medicines

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:14:58 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]It sucks, but I don't think you'll ever stop all this. The internet is too big to regulate really...

[/quote]

Well, no, but if large companies like eBay and Amazon were to act on information received and shut down accounts trading POMs illegally, it might help!