buzzards

Re: buzzards

Julian Earl — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 12:00:29 GMT

Like most predators they will take carrion if it is there, but they are also active hunters hence the dramatic fall in buzzard numbers when rabbits died off due to myxomatosis in the 50s and 60s. For me, the point is that even if they do take some pheasant chicks, so what? If that is the price that we have to payt to see a large majestic bird thrive then we should be willing to pay it. The pheasants may belong to the landowner but the buzzards don't, they belong to everyone - and no-one of course.

Re: buzzards

Lorna McHardy — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 11:50:17 GMT

I've lots of photographs of one of the buzzards that live in the woods by the house hunting for earthworms. They mantle over them for all the world as though they were a fat chunk of rabbit. They never attacked my hens either, even when they were 12 weeks old and very small.

Re: buzzards

Mark Holmes — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 10:32:28 GMT

I have a dozen chickens that frequently scratch around in the field accomanied by the local buzzard, which nests above them. I haven't lost one.

Re: buzzards

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 09:58:19 GMT

That's lovely

Wynne

Re: buzzards

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 09:40:48 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

Well if most pheasants either exscape or get squat on the roads why on earth is anyone worried about a couple of dozen being predated by buzzards?

Niall (puzzled)

[/quote]

I am puzzled too. I always understood that buzzards were carrion eaters - I have never seen one attack anything and in Northumberland they are most often to be see feeding on road-kill or circling overhead.

At a slight tangent, our hospital is on an industrial estate next to a couple of major trunk roads (A19 and A1). One of our neighbours is the Tommy Tippee factory/warehouse which has 30+ articulated lorries delivering/collecting each day. About 30 yds from their loading bay, up against the factory wall there are some loose stones/gravel and for the third year running a pair of Oystercatchers has nested and raised young (2 survivors almost fledged as I write this year). It is incredible - the nest is no more than 3 yds away from a very busy access road used by 100's of cars and lorries each day and in full view of our car park yet nobody (man nor predator) seems to notice. Isn't nature wonderful?

Re: buzzards

Niall Taylor — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:00:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] Have you ever done it? It's surprising how many get away (many good shoots will return less than half those released).[/quote]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"] I suspect most of the other half are killed on the roads.[/quote]

Well if most pheasants either exscape or get squat on the roads why on earth is anyone worried about a couple of dozen being predated by buzzards?

Niall (puzzled)

Re: buzzards

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 19:26:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Have you ever done it? It's surprising how many get away (many good shoots will return less than half those released).[/quote]

Indeed I have. (shooting that is, not hitting them out of the air with a stick). I suspect most of the other half are killed on the roads.

Re: buzzards

Julian Earl — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 18:58:58 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]So yes I am in favour of management, whether it is a fox, badger, rabbit, deer or buzzard. I don't want to see any of them extinct*[/quote]

Me too. Also well aware that in terms of general wild-life and habitat maintenance, game keepers tend to do lots more good than harm (especially when you can convince them that birds of prey aren't all bad). What's more, the annual pilgrimage of posh folk murdering grouse and salmon is an important part of the economy in these parts.

[/quote]

I'm not too sure of that about gamekeepers. Maybe times have changed but I used to work on a pig farm where they reared pheasants. The gamekeepers would happily have wiped out raptors, stoats, weasels, foxes magpies and anything that cost them £30 or whatever is was by killing a pheasant.

And that's what I resent, with intensity. We bring in a non-native species purely for killing for sport and then treat the natural ecology as though it is our possession, to do with as we will. That is the same mentality as whalers killing whales because they're eating all the fish, or the killing seals for the same reason. Oh really? Quite incredibly all these species coped pretty well in the hundred thousand years before we decided to cock the environment up. The argument for it being different now is flimsy - it's different because we're destroying it, so hey, let's damage it a bit more to get a balance that happens to suit us, the super-smart humans, who think we can control the planet and create some profit. Sod the animals that get in the way.

Leave. Them. Be.

Re: buzzards

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:56:18 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]What is sporting about shooting pheasants? They fly low, slow and straight - a moderately fit bloke with a stick can bring down a well-fed pheasant.[/quote]

Have you ever done it? It's surprising how many get away (many good shoots will return less than half those released).

Re: buzzards

James Laidlaw — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:34:06 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

a moderately fit bloke with a stick can bring down a well-fed pheasant.

[/quote] Is that going to be in the Olympics?

Re: buzzards

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:25:10 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Surprised that nobody has noted the link between the rise in raptors and the decline in songbirds![/quote]

If we are talking purely bird-on bird action thenI think Magpies are more likely to be responsible for reducing songbird numbers than raptors

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]At least the pheasant has a sporting chance and I would say a better quality of life.[/quote]

What is sporting about shooting pheasants? They fly low, slow and straight - a moderately fit bloke with a stick can bring down a well-fed pheasant.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]So yes I am in favour of management, whether it is a fox, badger, rabbit, deer or buzzard. I don't want to see any of them extinct*[/quote]

Re: buzzards

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 11:12:25 GMT

That's my reason for supporting it-after 1st satisfying myself that killing it is morally justifiable in the 1st place

Wynne

Re: buzzards

plantagenet — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 11:08:57 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Rifle shooting is fine for foxes-but most are shot with shotguns-and die days later from gangrene or peritonitis

Wynne

[/quote]

whereas at the end of a hunt the fox is either 100% alive or 100% dead

Re: buzzards

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 10:47:51 GMT

Rifle shooting is fine for foxes-but most are shot with shotguns-and die days later from gangrene or peritonitis

Wynne

Re: buzzards

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 01 Jun 2012 23:24:13 GMT

People go out into the countryside and think that is what nature is like, it really isn't. What you are looking at is a very managed environment.

I'd rather that animals were appropriately managed so that them and us can share the environment together. There is very little evidence that foxes kill lambs. There is good evidence that fox hunting does a very poor job of fox control. I know a chap who does a very good job and shoots a couple of hundred + per year. (all very humane with a high powered rifle).

Surprised that nobody has noted the link between the rise in raptors and the decline in songbirds! I suggest there may be a link. I don't care whether anyone agrees with shooting but a lot of people's livelihoods depend on it. If we are talking better 'welfare' I'd rather be a pheasant living wild, rather than a 'free range' hen (many of which never step foot outside). At least the pheasant has a sporting chance and I would say a better quality of life.

So yes I am in favour of management, whether it is a fox, badger, rabbit, deer or buzzard. I don't want to see any of them extinct*

(*and nor does my friend who shoots a lot of foxes!)

Re: buzzards

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:58:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

This time I agree with you Martin-which is why I've given you 5 gold stars

Wynne

[/quote] well I could almost say I reciprocate with your previous post (at least we're off the DM now!) I see red star man has been out again but I've given you 4 gold to compensate (couldn't quite bring myself to give you 5). As Voltaire said: 'I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Re: buzzards

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:45:02 GMT

This time I agree with you Martin-which is why I've given you 5 gold stars

Wynne

Re: buzzards

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:41:31 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

But often it is we humans who have removed the predator from the equation, or created an environment that favours one species (i.e. providing limitless roadkill to magpies) so surely it is not unreasonable to control (not eradicate) a species that is becoming overpopulated - badgers - and which is therefore damaging bumblebees, ground nesting birds etc.

If our beef industry were doing better - without TB - there would be less pressure to cut down the rainforest for ranching.

If only life were so simple as to let nature get on with it by itself - only in a world without humans, which I don't actually want. (Fewer perhaps, but thats a whole other issue)

[/quote] Which is why I posed a question rather than just make a statement. We have established ourselves as top predator but a predator with a conscience doesn't quite work. I don't know what the answer is but I just feel that we have to accept a certain amount of economic loss as a consequence of our previous folly. It is easy to say this from the comfort of a privileged existence and I'm aware that my livelihood is not affected like a cattle farmer or a game keeper by badgers or buzzards. I am prepared to accept that I will never travel to the Galapagos in the footsteps of Darwin, which has been a life-long ambition, because I realise that the carbon footprint I leave will endanger the very thing I've travelled to see. Yet I am prepared to fly to the Alps to ski. I am as much of a hypocrite as those I criticise. Everything is a balance, we have made ourselves the custodians of the planet lets hope we get it right before its too late. I wish I knew the answers.

Re: buzzards

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:40:44 GMT

I'm in favour of badger culling because I think there's some pretty conclusive evidence that culling in TB endemic areas will improve the health of both cattle and badgers and the economic viability of many farmers

I'm opposed to the buzzard cull because there's no evidence that it would be of environmental/economic benefit to any other than a small minority I might change my mind if evidence was available-but in this area farmers co-exist with both buzzards and red kite-and benefit from the tourism attraction of kite

Similarly I'm in favour of fox hunting,because there's ample evidence of the harm caused by fox predation on lambs,and I think hunting far more humane than snaring, or shotguns both of which result in lingering deaths I'm opposed to hare hunting because no-one has given a convincing argument for culling hares in the first place Similarly I'm opposed to deer hunting-because so far no-one has convinced me that on Exmoor they actually need culling

Maybe at 1st sight a contradictory stance-but I think each issue out seperately-and try to take a "do least harm " stance

I've probably now succeeded in annoying both the "huntin shootin fishin" lobby and the consevation lobby-so be it

Wynne

Re: buzzards

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:30:31 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

[quote user="plantagenet"]

If only life were so simple as to let nature get on with it by itself - only in a world without humans, which I don't actually want. (Fewer perhaps, but thats a whole other issue)

[/quote]

Yes and its the same with the organic food business. People as pretty selective with the whole nature getting on with itself thing. Left to nauture women and children would die in childbirth and human life expectancy would be mid thirtys, a fact given I am in my mid thirtys is casue of alarm! If nature isn't allowed to control the human population it cannot control itself.

[/quote]

Life expectancy figures are massively skewed by infant and child deaths. In third world situations these are huge but if you get through that you can expect to live much later than the mean.

Re: buzzards

Mark Holmes — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:17:35 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

If only life were so simple as to let nature get on with it by itself - only in a world without humans, which I don't actually want. (Fewer perhaps, but thats a whole other issue)

[/quote]

Re: buzzards

plantagenet — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:11:14 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="plantagenet"]

The underlying question is what is wrong with wildlife population management anyway. I objected to the RSPB seeking a ban on any raptor ever being culled for any reason.

Good wildlife management can lead to far healthier populations and better conservation than blindly labeling some species untouchable under any circumstances - badgers for example.

[/quote] Lets not forget that wildlife management is only necessary because of human interference, it is nothing short of hypocrisy if we object to the proliferation of those species which have adapted to the environment we have created through the destruction of of their original habitat. How can we object to the destruction of rainforest and encroachment of indigenous peoples on wildlife habitat in third world countries when we have historically had no regard for our own? To take the buzzards and badgers as examples, at what point do we accept that some economic loss is necessary to the farming industry to try and preserve what little bit of native fauna we have left? Nature will sort itself out without our interference.

[/quote]

If our beef industry were doing better - without TB - there would be less pressure to cut down the rainforest for ranching.

If only life were so simple as to let nature get on with it by itself - only in a world without humans, which I don't actually want. (Fewer perhaps, but thats a whole other issue)

Re: buzzards

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:06:37 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

www.youtube.com/watch

[/quote]

Re: buzzards

Mark Holmes — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:01:09 GMT

www.youtube.com/watch

Re: buzzards

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 31 May 2012 14:57:49 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]We'll never agree on this so let's get back to buzzards[/quote]

............. you mean all those foreign buzzards, coming over here, breeding like rabbits and stealing all the prey that is the birthright of our native born sparrow hawks???

A hair-cut, a job and a damn good birching - that'll sort them out.

[/quote] Cutting Malcolm but I've given you five stars. We'll have to be careful we're beginning to agree with each other!