Nursing failures

Re: Nursing failures

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 08:01:51 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]That's all right, we'll meet in the middle somewhere, I expect. (Honestly, not trying to be sarcastic or anything.)[/quote]

It isn't about compromise - you quite clearly don't understand my position. I have nothing against my "local training company" (which we don't use). The company we do use does an excellent job.

Veterinary Nursing as a profession and the place of veterinary nurses in practice will not substantially improve while the present training industry-domination persists.

[/quote]i can't understand your position until you tell me what it is, which you've now done, thank you very much. Appreciate the clarification.

Re: Nursing failures

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:30:30 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]That's all right, we'll meet in the middle somewhere, I expect. (Honestly, not trying to be sarcastic or anything.)[/quote]

It isn't about compromise - you quite clearly don't understand my position. I have nothing against my "local training company" (which we don't use). The company we do use does an excellent job.

Veterinary Nursing as a profession and the place of veterinary nurses in practice will not substantially improve while the present training industry-domination persists.

Re: Nursing failures

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:05:42 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]You really don't like your local training company, do you? ;)[/quote]

If that question was aimed at me Mark, you have got the wrong end of the stick completely.

[/quote]

That's all right, we'll meet in the middle somewhere, I expect. (Honestly, not trying to be sarcastic or anything.)

Re: Nursing failures

Minnie — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:08:36 GMT

I don't even pretend that loosening the grip the training industry has is going to be easy but I dont see it as impossible, I believe if enough people (vets and nurses) were to collaborate on this and come up with a workable solution then change could happen. Maybe I am just an eternal optimist but the word 'impossible' doesnt figure in my dictionary.

Re: Nursing failures

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:48:53 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Put me down, but you won't mind if I feel a bit pessimistic about the chances of anyone listening.[/quote]

Me too, to both parts.

Problems: 1. Huge vested interest in the training industry matched by an enormous political influence at all levels of decision making - check out how many of the BVNA council, the RCVS VN people and the LANTRA reps (past and present) are employed within the VN training industry. 2. Recent big changes to the scheme so there will be a reluctance to change things again so soon. 3. There is a widespread belief amonst VNs that any criticism of the VN training industry is a criticism of the profession of veterinary nursing and simply because we are Veterinary Surgeons, we must be anti-VN. Mainly untrue but "hearts and minds" will need to be won before any progress is made. 4. The present system aligns comfortably with recent government/political thinking and therefore funding. 5. Substantial changes to funding (and they are not likely to be funding increases) could bring the whole system crashing down - VN training is now an industry and if the money goes, so will the industry.

Opportunities: 1. The recently departed Registrar was a key part of the VN training industry power base. 2. Not all VNs in positions of power and influence are beholden to their employers in the training industry. 3, The soon to be president of RCVS led the last review and re-vamp of the system and I can't believe that she is pleased with the way things turned out! 4. Recent govt austerity means that a light will be shone on training and things might change. 5. The timing may be right to offer an alternative, work-place (ie veterinary practice) funded training solution, perhaps, as Minnie implies, something that looks a lot like the old scheme would have looked if it had evolved in parallel with the needs of practices and their nurses.

Don't hold your breath though, the training industry's grip on power and influence along with their vested interest remains too great.

Re: Nursing failures

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:27:10 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]You really don't like your local training company, do you? ;)[/quote]

If that question was aimed at me Mark, you have got the wrong end of the stick completely.

Re: Nursing failures

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 15:49:34 GMT

(Never mind)

Re: Nursing failures

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:55:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Toadster"]

Commnication, team-work and frank discussions in a fear-free environment. Yes please. Surely vets and nurses can (should) work together to help resolve the current nurse training issues? Who is up for it? Me, I am willling to help. Anyone else????

[/quote]

Yup, put me down and hopefully someone will listen.

[/quote]

Put me down, but you won't mind if I feel a bit pessimistic about the chances of anyone listening.

Re: Nursing failures

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:23:38 GMT

[quote user="Toadster"]

[/quote]

Yup, put me down and hopefully someone will listen.

Re: Nursing failures

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:35:08 GMT

Re: Nursing failures

Minnie — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:47:04 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="minnie"]what we have now is too complicated,too expensive, not practice friendly[/quote]

Absolutely right; my trained staff are of less value to me now than they were.

They've learned nothing, or very little, of value to me, but have learned a lot about things they cannot do or shouldn't do or aren't allowed to do.

Sorry, forgot about the colour of the corpus luteum, vital in today's environment!!

And, instead of relying on smell for anaesthetic gas leaks, they now test for one day, any day, every six months.........

Oh, and I pay for all this training and palarver.

And as for actual nursing, nah; what you mean touching faeces and urine?

The others do that.

[/quote]

I understand that you are unhappy with the product of the current training (as many of us are nurses and vets alike). The purpose of my post was to gauge interest in how many people would be supportive of a return a more common sense, practical approach to nursing rather than the dogs breakfast we have now. To make that possible vets and nurses have to work together and the best way for that to happen is if people input their ideas on what they would like rather than concentrating on what they don't like about what they have now.

Re: Nursing failures

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:19:20 GMT

[quote user="sam aldridge"] I think a lot of it is on the individual as well as the training.[/quote]

Sure, but I bet you always

[quote user="sam aldridge"]kept my patients clean, comfortable and as least stressed as they can be. It is also ensuring the practice is clean and hygienic to minimise risk to us and the patient and I still take great satisfaction in a clean tidy prep room with all my patient clean, resting and happy. I think a lot of it is on the individual as well as the training.[/quote]

when you first started!

Trouble is, some never had, and never will have your attitude, and more "training" doesn't help just gives them the superiority and "reason" not to do so!!

Re: Nursing failures

sam aldridge — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:44:16 GMT

I do find it a bit insulting that people are generalising that all nurses through the newer systems 'wont touch urine or faeces' etc. I trained through the degree route (and NVQ). Yes I enjoy the more challenging parts of my job and placing iv catheters/bloods etc but the heart of my job is still to keep my patients clean, comfortable and as least stressed as they can be. It is also ensuring the practice is clean and hygienic to minimise risk to us and the patient and I still take great satisfaction in a clean tidy prep room with all my patient clean, resting and happy. I think a lot of it is on the individual as well as the training.

Re: Nursing failures

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:23:17 GMT

[quote user="minnie"]what we have now is too complicated,too expensive, not practice friendly[/quote]

Absolutely right; my trained staff are of less value to me now than they were.

They've learned nothing, or very little, of value to me, but have learned a lot about things they cannot do or shouldn't do or aren't allowed to do.

Sorry, forgot about the colour of the corpus luteum, vital in today's environment!!

And, instead of relying on smell for anaesthetic gas leaks, they now test for one day, any day, every six months.........

Oh, and I pay for all this training and palarver.

And as for actual nursing, nah; what you mean touching faeces and urine?

The others do that.

Re: Nursing failures

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:51:51 GMT

Put Malcolm and Minnie in charge and there'd be some common sense about nurse training

Wynne

Re: Nursing failures

Minnie — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:41:04 GMT

Personally I would love to see a return of nurse training pre NVQ - what we have now is too complicated,too expensive, not practice friendly and is in many cases turning out nursing staff unsuited to working in many practices. The veterinary nursing qualification has become a stepping stone into 'greater ' things. It doesn't surprise me that there are vets not happy with the nurse training - there are nurses not happy with the nurse training too. I am saddened at what veterinary nursing has turned into, its become a monster. The question is what is going to be done about it? There are too many groups with an interest in preserving their own futures, and if this carries on veterinary nursing as I understood it when I came into the job has no future.

Is there any possibility that some of the nurses looking for change and some of the vets looking for change could work together on this?

Re: Nursing failures

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:29:06 GMT

You really don't like your local training company, do you? ;)

Re: Nursing failures

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:52:08 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] Bit of a topic drift, though...[/quote]

A bit like VN training itself, which has "drifted" from being a well-targeted, cost-effective scheme for preparing trainees to work an nurses in veterinary practices to a costly, inefficient, paper-work driven industry modelled around the needs of training companies to derive an income.

Re: Nursing failures

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 22:07:12 GMT

Trained people can indeed mess up. I don't believe anyone's arguing that point. I also think that quite a few aviation disasters have proved that people can always break technology. Bit of a topic drift, though...

Re: Nursing failures

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:37:24 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Unfortunately audible warnings are not fool-proof:[/quote]

Yeah, but read the relevant piece in the report:

after which it began a descent so gradual it could not be perceived by the crew.^[18] In the next seventy seconds, the plane lost only 250 feet (76 m), but this was enough to trigger the altitude warning C-chord chime located under the engineer's workstation. The engineer (second officer Repo) had gone below, and there was no indication by the pilot's voices recorded on the CVR that they heard the chime. In another fifty seconds, the plane was at half its assigned altitude.^[20]

As Stockstill started another turn, onto 180 degrees, he noticed the discrepancy. The following conversation was recovered from the flight voice recorder later:

Stockstill: We did something to the altitude.

Loft: What?

Stockstill: We're still at 2,000 feet, right?

Loft: Hey — what's happening here?^[21]

What triggered Stockstill to say "We did something to the altitude." Did he, finally, hear the audible alarm?

alas too late!!

Re: Nursing failures

HMC — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:54:17 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] It sounds to me as though the practice is having financial problems, [/quote]

Actually I don't think so. In the past we've been told if turnover has been down. We are very busy - part of the problem - and there doesn't seem any problem buying new equipment etc. It's more I think a lack of interest, lack of forward planning, putting off difficult decisions - and as long as the work gets done why bother.

[/quote]

I can imagine this scenario all too well and you have my sympathy. My advice would be to make sure that you act as a professional individual and stand up for yourself when necessary.

Re: Nursing failures

Rob Davis — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:41:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Just look at this thread and then dismiss audible warnings as "annoying".....

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/488334-distracted-crew-let-q400-descend-towards-terrain.html

[/quote]

Unfortunately audible warnings are not fool-proof:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401

The warning was audible on the black box recording retrieved after the crash but both pilots were so absorbed in trying to fix the problem with a faulty landing light that neither appeared to notice it...

Re: Nursing failures

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 11:34:50 GMT

[quote user="minnie"]Soon there won't be any VNs available[/quote]

Yes, they'll also be flying A380s as well.

Just look at this thread and then dismiss audible warnings as "annoying".....

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/488334-distracted-crew-let-q400-descend-towards-terrain.html

Admittedly they were only untrained untested jet-jockeys........

And FTFA is another good achronym we all should remember.

Re: Nursing failures

Minnie — Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:35:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Soon there won't be any VNs available

[/quote]

True as the VN is now an endangered species replaced by the RVN, and the natural habitat of the RVN is more likely to be repping, practice management, referral practice or teaching the next generation of RVNs so they can go and do the same.

Re: Nursing failures

Anthony Todd — Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:58:35 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]it takes longer to get through the ops[/quote]

Just out of interest what's an average ops. list? I don't want to start the legendary I-can-do-a-cat-spay-in-X-minutes but what are you supposed to get done in so many hours?