"While you're here..."

Re: "While you're here..."

An On MRCVS — Wed, 30 May 2012 11:51:17 GMT

We've recently become the vets for our local dog warden, and they bring us dogs most weeks for euthanasia. Those with aggression or complex medical problems I don't object to, but I won't put down a healthy, happy friendly dog just because it's a staffy. I know if I don't do it that one of my colleagues will, but I don't feel comfortable doing it myself. So I don't change the outcome for the dog, but it helps me sleep at night. I have said that if they can give me more information about their rehoming policy then I would feel more comfortable doing it, but it seems to be that anything male with SBT blood doesn't get a chance.

On a slightly different note, I would never dare to refuse to PTS an animal for aggression, if it goes on to attack/injure someone else, would I in some way be liable?

Re: "While you're here..."

Sarah Keir — Mon, 28 May 2012 18:04:57 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I think if you are busy and running late and people have been kept waiting they are often keen to make sure they ge value for money when they finally get to see you. In a way it is a compliment, and a full health check is a full health check so I try and grin and bear it

The ones that really drive me crazy are the ones who ask you to identichip or even worse trim claws - at post op checks!

My other pet hates are cases where the owners have saved up 6 months worth of vague concerns and lumps of uncertain location. they always come at the end of surgery on a Friday or Saturday and usually end up by not following advice anyway!

oh and cases where a client has one appointment slot but brings more than one animal....aargh! My record was a lady that brought no less than 13 snotty siamese cats in for a health check ( booked a single slot!) after being thrown out of a cat show for flu signs. that lady was notorious, fortunately i had a colleague who could take up the slack so i just grinned and bore it, with some degree of admiration for bare faced cheek!

[/quote]

Having enough, training nursing staff around is essential for these. There is no need why the vet has to do thing like nail clips, identichips, blood samples etc. Frees me up to spend more time doing the clinical stuff and give better client satifaction. I am also not adverse to booking client in for a second appointment to cover the other things that were brought up - do the most pressing problem at the time and a a suitable recheck, then cover the rest. Happy vet, happy client

Re: "While you're here..."

James Laidlaw — Mon, 28 May 2012 10:00:06 GMT

Alet, That was a pretty crap situation-I was lucky enough to be far enough away at my branch not to have to deal with that particular clinician. Thanks for reminding me though!!!

Re: "While you're here..."

Alex Gough — Mon, 28 May 2012 09:41:34 GMT

At least you can't be disciplined for refusing to euthanase a healthy animal any more, unlike the poor vet who got reprimanded for refusing to euthanase an incontinent dog some time in the late 90s.

Alex

Re: "While you're here..."

Mark Holmes — Mon, 28 May 2012 09:14:52 GMT

I didn't suggest I would bluntly put a dog down without a discussion about reasons and alternatives, but I don't see any benefit in refusing should the client insist.

Re: "While you're here..."

Mark Holmes — Mon, 28 May 2012 09:14:47 GMT

I didn't suggest I would bluntly put a dog down without a discussion about reasons and alternatives, but I don't see any benefit in refusing should the client insist.

Re: "While you're here..."

Alet Engelbrecht — Mon, 28 May 2012 07:05:35 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"] I'm not saying I'll never not put an animal down, just that I will occasionally refuse to euthanise.[/quote]

Lol! I would hope it's not a blanket refusal - we had a vet that point-blank refused to pts ANYTHING (remember him, James?). As another colleague of ours in the same group said: 'He's not a bad guy, he just won't KILL anything!'

I have occasionally objected to pts in healthy dogs, unfortunately owners often know which cards to play - incontinence, aggression etc. I know of people that will refuse to pts for aggression unless behavioural advice had been seeked. I find this questionable if an animal is really aggressive and especially in houses with elderly or children. Where I do not think Pts is the correct course of action, I would suggest to the owner to wait a few days and try to rehome the animal with our help. A big issue here is that rescue centres are filled to the brim and waiting lists are very long, so people think they have no alternatives. We had a great relationship with Cats Protection and managed to rehome quite a few cats.

I think, once again, communication is key in this. If the owner comes to you wanting pts in a healthy animal with no emotion whatsoever, the best for the animal is to remove it from the person - be it pts or having it signed over. If a client cannot afford to unblock a cat and wants pts but is obviously very distressed, I will try to arrange payment options. Part of our job is to uphold the human-animal bond and these small considerations can change owners' perceptions of vets.

Re: "While you're here..."

James Laidlaw — Sun, 27 May 2012 21:48:34 GMT

Well, to give a specific example, someone who had had a number of large breed dogs on the clinic's records where I was working, all put to sleep early. 2 year old GSD and owner said he was slightly lame. Wanted PTS. No x-rays, and refused to even consider medication. Just wanted it put to sleep. So I refused. What would you do? Kill a healthy dog with a slight limp?

Had another last year with a lady who had 2 puppies and wanted one put down cause it had diarrhoea and she "had tried everything" - actually had tried nothing. We rehomed it through our staff before I even began calling local rehoming centres.

To be honest - I don't get why I get any low star ratings or alternative viewpoints to this. I'm not saying I'll never not put an animal down, just that I will occasionally refuse to euthanise. I also find it helps in situations when I do to be able to tell a client who is uncertain that I will certainly refuse to carry out a PTS if I don't believe it's the right thing to do.

Re: "While you're here..."

Louise6732 — Sun, 27 May 2012 19:28:15 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Sometimes it isn't[/quote]

This is entirely your choice, but to play devil's advocate slightly, what do you think happens to the animal if you don't put it to sleep? It goes home and the O' realises the error of their ways? Or they take it to another vet who will PTS? Or they assume if you don't do it, no vet will, and they attempt PTS themselves...

Louise

Re: "While you're here..."

James Laidlaw — Sat, 26 May 2012 23:28:16 GMT

Wel I have refused to put animals down before and will continue to do so when I deem that killing them is not the right thing to do. Sometimes it isn't.

Re: "While you're here..."

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 26 May 2012 23:11:32 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I don't refuse to put animals down.[/quote]

Me neither. Euthanasia is not a welfare problem. I have never felt sorry for a dead animal, its the living ones that have to suffer.

Re: "While you're here..."

Mark Frost — Sat, 26 May 2012 13:15:13 GMT

I once refused to vaccinate a dog on the grounds that I didn't feel it was well enough, hadn't got to the point of discussing investigations as the owner was more concerned about getting the dog into kennels when the dog started cheyne-stoke breathing and died on the table. Owner wasn't really concerned as solved the kennels problem (nice) and confirmed my decision not to vaccinate. Could easily have been a Daily Mail 'Vaccination killed my dog' article...

Re: "While you're here..."

Bob Russell — Sat, 26 May 2012 10:57:47 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Not for arguing myself, frankly I cannot remember the details, it may have been behavioural or a lump or anything. It didn't prevent booster and ahe then decided on euthanasia. In the above instance there was something but I don't recall but as a rule I will put anything to sleep as requested. If you don't you ultimately just pass it onto somebody else. Even if rehomed it doesn't increase the available homes, it just means a dog somewhere else doesn't get one and is euthanased instead. In my early career I routinely had to euthase a couple of van loads of healthy young dogs each week, you become philosophical about it.

[/quote]

Over the years I have had a few, not dissimilar experiences. A dog brought in for a booster and eventually a client comes clean with their genuine concerns. A booster followed within minutes with euthanasia? Not unheard of!

Odd definitely but then the human race is pretty odd!

Re: "While you're here..."

James Laidlaw — Sat, 26 May 2012 09:06:13 GMT

I think we share a different definition of the word philosophical...

Re: "While you're here..."

Mark Holmes — Fri, 25 May 2012 19:28:32 GMT

Not for arguing myself, frankly I cannot remember the details, it may have been behavioural or a lump or anything. It didn't prevent booster and ahe then decided on euthanasia. In the above instance there was something but I don't recall but as a rule I will put anything to sleep as requested. If you don't you ultimately just pass it onto somebody else. Even if rehomed it doesn't increase the available homes, it just means a dog somewhere else doesn't get one and is euthanased instead. In my early career I routinely had to euthase a couple of van loads of healthy young dogs each week, you become philosophical about it.

Re: "While you're here..."

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 25 May 2012 18:13:36 GMT

Mark

Words fail me

Wynne

Re: "While you're here..."

James Laidlaw — Fri, 25 May 2012 18:06:05 GMT

Even if they are healthy? Granted we all do things differently, but this just baffles me a bit. I will absolutely refuse to euth an animal if I don't think it's the right decision. Maybe there's more detail we haven't heard so I'll leave it at that. Too hot on the tube, packed like sardines and it's the weekend... Not up for arguing!

Re: "While you're here..."

Mark Holmes — Fri, 25 May 2012 16:25:53 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

So it was healthy enough to have a booster, but not healthy enough for you to refuse to put it down???

[/quote]

I don't refuse to put animals down.

Re: "While you're here..."

James Laidlaw — Fri, 25 May 2012 14:10:36 GMT

So it was healthy enough to have a booster, but not healthy enough for you to refuse to put it down???

Re: "While you're here..."

Mark Holmes — Fri, 25 May 2012 13:13:45 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Not on the same animal I hope

Wynne

[/quote]

Yes same animal, did booster and then discussed something and all of a sudden owner decided ahe wanted the dog euthanased. I advised against it but when she wouldn't budge put it down. I amde sure I charged for the booster and euthanasia to make the point!

Re: "While you're here..."

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 25 May 2012 13:07:38 GMT

Not on the same animal I hope

Wynne

Re: "While you're here..."

Mark Holmes — Fri, 25 May 2012 13:05:54 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

I've got a bet going with myself that someone will come in for a PTS one day and ask me to clip their dogs nails as well...

[/quote]

Well..... I did once, many years ago, euthanaze a collie, the owner of which requested that before cremation, I remove the lump on its leg so that it would not be lumbered with it in the afterlife.

[/quote]

I done a booster and euthanase on the same appointment.

Re: "While you're here..."

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 25 May 2012 13:03:40 GMT

I suppose if an owner knows the dog hates having it's nails clipped,it's going tohave a serious operation, and might not pull through then a request for a nailclipping is a way of reassuring themselves that it does have a chance-and that they're doing the right thing by choosing the operation as opposed to PTS

Wynne

Re: "While you're here..."

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 25 May 2012 10:49:20 GMT

[quote user="Rachael Winder"]

I'm always a bit thrown by the owners who, after spending 20mins explaining how critically ill their animal is and how they might not make it, are more worried that you clip their nails while they're with you... Priorities!

[/quote]

Probably because they're struggling to get their head around the sudden news that their dog is very unwell, so their mind switches to something about their dog that they do understand.

Re: "While you're here..."

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 25 May 2012 10:16:09 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

I've got a bet going with myself that someone will come in for a PTS one day and ask me to clip their dogs nails as well...

[/quote]

Well..... I did once, many years ago, euthanaze a collie, the owner of which requested that before cremation, I remove the lump on its leg so that it would not be lumbered with it in the afterlife.