Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 25 May 2012 18:59:26 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]Good grief, what numpty approved that one??[/quote]

House of Commons.

[/quote]

It was a rhetorical question, but it's still a scary thought!

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

bob lehner — Fri, 25 May 2012 18:54:47 GMT

But on the other hand if a client knows the dog is potentially aggressive (and possibly has bitten or tried to bite a v.s. previously) but fails to mention it - should they not be held liable ?

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 25 May 2012 18:24:19 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]Wow. So in theory, if somebody with a phobia, or simply inexperienced in the ways of dogs, panics about, say, a golden retriever, with its tail waving and its tongue lolling, bounces past them to pick up the stick a little further along (and probably doesn't even notice them as it does so)... that dog is dangerously out of control.[/quote]This scenario did occur in our village: there are some Asian youths with 2 Rottweilers which they let wander off the lead and a local resident reported them to the resident's association (not sure what he felt they could do about it) because he said they were (potentially) aggressive and he was scared to walk past them. In actual fact they are fine I frequently see them when I'm out for my evening run and they never bat an eyelid - too busy sniffing the ground. A case of stereotyping dogs and in this case, owners maybe?

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 25 May 2012 17:00:28 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]Good grief, what numpty approved that one??[/quote]

House of Commons.

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Bob Russell — Fri, 25 May 2012 16:58:52 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Yep.

effin' stupid law.

[/quote]

Well, I knew that, but I didn't realize quite how effin' stupid! Good grief, what numpty approved that one??

[/quote]

The same ones that approve all the stupid rules!

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 25 May 2012 16:52:54 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Yep.

effin' stupid law.

[/quote]

Well, I knew that, but I didn't realize quite how effin' stupid! Good grief, what numpty approved that one??

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Bob Russell — Fri, 25 May 2012 13:16:02 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

They're poor value clients anyway and hopefully they'll think I'm rude and not come back.

[/quote]

No they won't! Clients like this never seem to take the hint and go!

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 25 May 2012 11:53:29 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="bob lehner"]

DEFRA website re Dangerous Dogs Legislation:

Any dog is dangerously out of control if:

• it injures a person, or

• it behaves in a way that makes a person worried that it might injure them.

[/quote]

Wow. So in theory, if somebody with a phobia, or simply inexperienced in the ways of dogs, panics about, say, a golden retriever, with its tail waving and its tongue lolling, bounces past them to pick up the stick a little further along (and probably doesn't even notice them as it does so)... that dog is dangerously out of control.

[/quote]

Yep.

effin' stupid law.

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 25 May 2012 10:28:25 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

DEFRA website re Dangerous Dogs Legislation:

Any dog is dangerously out of control if:

• it injures a person, or

• it behaves in a way that makes a person worried that it might injure them.

[/quote]

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

bob lehner — Fri, 25 May 2012 10:12:30 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]once the dog is in your consulting room you have assumed control and it is your responsibility [/quote]

That is certainly the VDS line (see the FAQ on their website)

[/quote]

Yes - this has always been the accepted line. However I find it QI if you look on the DEFRA website re Dangerous Dogs Legislation:

Normal 0

'WHAT IS MEANT BY DANGEROUSLY OUT OF CONTROL?

Any dog is dangerously out of control if:

• it injures a person, or

• it behaves in a way that makes a person worried that it might injure them.

The law applies everywhere the general public is allowed to go and anywhere your dog goes where it is not supposed to be.

The maximum penalty for allowing a dog you own or are in charge of to be dangerously out of control is two years’

imprisonment, or a fine, or both.'

Seems to be a good arguement that if an owner knows his dog is likely to be dangerous and the v.s/v.n. gets bitten without any due warning being given then the onus might in fact be on the owner.

There was an interesting account of a v.s. getting bitten in the 'A Practitioner Ponders' section of the recent In Practice.

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:15:27 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

They thought it was funny when the dog tried (very nearly managed) to bite.

[/quote]

This infuriates me... clients who think it's hilarious when their animal - whatever species - tries to take my hand off... "oh, ho ho ho and he he he, he doesn't like the vet, does he... there there. good boy. it's ok."

Grrrrrr etc etc etc

[/quote] Just had an aggressive Staffie in with a broken dew claw, last time it came in it also had an erm.... broken dew claw and there's a note that it is aggressive and must be muzzled. After a struggle the owner managed to muzzle it but what pisses me off is they're saying 'good girl' and cuddling it like a big baby all the time and can't understand when I tell them not to because they're rewarding the behaviour. They're poor value clients anyway and hopefully they'll think I'm rude and not come back.

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:06:51 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]

Speaking about Dutch - my old practice in Kent had a couple of rings - 1 in reception and 1 in the main consult room. I always assumed they were to tie the dog while paying the bill or something like that and will consider using it for restraint next time I see one.

[/quote]

I'm familiar with the ring system too, I always thought it worked a treat.... until the meanest GSD ever just managed to bite through his very thick, strong leather lead and then went for me (had a lucky escape :-))

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Alet Engelbrecht — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:57:40 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]it is a very common family name in Germany ![/quote]

Good to know - it can add another dimension to my personality! Apart from the surname, the heritage is probably mostly Dutch (some Venter and Kellerman in the mix too).

[quote user="Mariette Asselbergs"]In Holland (yearsc ago, I don't know now) small animal consult rooms always had a ring in the wall. You could pass the lead of an aggressive dog through the ring and hold him/her safe to quickly in ject something.[/quote]

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:52:09 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

They thought it was funny when the dog tried (very nearly managed) to bite.

[/quote]

Grrrrrr etc etc etc

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:46:08 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Hope you feel better! It's weird that the smallest dogs are sometimes the nastiest ones!

[/quote]

My theory is that it happens because owners don't take their titchy puppies seriously when they growl at them. Young Yorkie growling? "ahhhhhhh.... isn't he cute... look at his little teeth!!!" Young GSD growling? "er... maybe we should think about this..."

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:50:03 GMT

In a farm situation there have been vets successfully sued by farmers injured during animal handling. I remember one case where a crush was insufficiently anchored and without a floor, the farmer was injured and sued the vet despite it being his crush! The argument being the vet was responsible for making sure the procedure could be carried out safely and should have refused to go on until he was satisfied it was safe to do so.

If I consider a dog is a threat to safety I will advise owners how to reduce risks but if they fail to comply fully I have refused to treat an animal.

A group of teenagers brought in an angry Rottie with wet eczema around its backside. They thought it was funny when the dog tried (very nearly managed) to bite. I explained what I believed was going on, made it clear that their attitude to my safety was unacceptable. I suggested sedation would be required. They were marched to the reception desk to pay and were told not to come back unless there was someone able to handle the dog!

No loss to me that they did not return!

Edit - page 8 SPVS Journal covers the matter. Looks like we are not 100% responsible!!

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:24:58 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]

Ps - I was very amused when a client started speaking German to me in a consult after seeing my name tag. Don't know my true ancestry on that Dad's side of the family, my mother was a Dalton, so also some Irish - what a combo!

[/quote]

it is a very common family name in Germany !

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Alet Engelbrecht — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:20:38 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I would also tell the practice manager that he is not qualified to pass an opinion on this and would be better keeping his ill informed views to himself.[/quote]

I did. But it is tough when someone is even more arrogant than a South African. Hence wanting to clarify the rule. Although I am quite miffed at being bitten, I am fully prepared to take responsibility for the dog's actions as I did not look back on the notes before getting it out of the kennel. I just got even more annoyed when the practice manager piped up and said to call the owner to restrain his dog, when at the end of the day, the buck will still stop with me!

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Rob Loxley — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:14:35 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]once the dog is in your consulting room you have assumed control and it is your responsibility [/quote]

That is certainly the VDS line (see the FAQ on their website)

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:12:26 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]After all, it doesn't hurt that much to be German [/quote] Its hurting the Greeks though.

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:12:04 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

After all, it doesn't hurt that much to be German

It is an ongoing discussion here in Germany and depends on the situation

[/quote]

Isn't it easy to take things out of context and change the meaning!!

[/quote]

sorry, was meant as a joke as there were some apologies for assuming Alet was from Germany, did go wrong obviously.

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:07:55 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

After all, it doesn't hurt that much to be German

It is an ongoing discussion here in Germany and depends on the situation

[/quote]

Isn't it easy to take things out of context and change the meaning!!

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:06:13 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]

Which brings me to the question - if the dog bites me during my examination or treatment, I, as the vet and person trained to handle the dog, will be responsible. I do find this quite unfair as we all know that owners often won't warn us that the animal is aggressive until they try to bite. But - who is liable if the dog bites the owner in the surgery? I have been under the impression that as soon as I get involved, i.e. call the dog in for a consultation, I am responsible (as the knowledgeable person) for the behaviour and therefore liable if the dog bites anyone. The practice manager argued that we are not responsible if the owner cannot handle his own dog.

[/quote]

I thought the rule was quite unequivocal on this one: once the dog is in your consulting room you have assumed control and it is your responsibility - the owner does not necessarily know how his animal will behave in a novel and frightening environment. However, if the owner deliberately failed to inform you that his dog was aggressive when he knew it was and offered to assist in its restraint when you had advised a member of staff assisted, this may be a reasonable defence. In this case however you were already aware the dog was aggressive and should have taken the correct steps towards its restraint beforehand including, if necessary, refusing to see it if the owner wasn't prepared to muzzle it before bringing it in. I would also tell the practice manager that he is not qualified to pass an opinion on this and would be better keeping his ill informed views to himself.

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:02:07 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Very sorry! I somehow remembered you were from Germany. I do apologize![/quote]

Nope - Proudly South African! And British too! But with my weird accent I can be anything you want...

[/quote]

errr, you might remember me then. After all, it doesn't hurt that much to be German

It is an ongoing discussion here in Germany and depends on the situation, the judge and so on. Insurance companies always try to get hold of the owner once an employee has been bitten and make them/their insurance pay. It can damage the relationship to the client if there is no insurance

Re: Aggressive dogs in consult/premises

Alet Engelbrecht — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:32:00 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Very sorry! I somehow remembered you were from Germany. I do apologize![/quote]

Nope - Proudly South African! And British too! But with my weird accent I can be anything you want...