compassionate leave

Re: compassionate leave

Acrobat77 — Thu, 24 May 2012 20:01:30 GMT

My condolences too.

I agree that the boss is mean to be doing what they are legally (but morally?) allowed to do.

It should be noted, however, that they have absolutely NO right to deduct from your wages without your permission. Your OP seemed to imply that this was a possibility and it's illegal.

You may not get them to budge on taking it as unpaid leave or holiday, but do not stand for them doing anything you don't agree to. Consider your position at the practice in light of this when you have the headspace to do so.

Re: compassionate leave

Matteo Villani — Thu, 24 May 2012 18:56:26 GMT

Dear Colleagues

Thank you so much for your comments and observations. It was nice to read the support you showed for my situation from both employers and employees.

Thank you too for the condolences…much appreciated

Matteo

Re: compassionate leave

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 24 May 2012 00:43:41 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]Er... I don't think I'd stay long in the employ of somebody who thought of the employer/employee relationship in terms of who holds which cards.[/quote]

I think that that was what I was trying to say.

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"] You make it sound like a perpetual battlefield of advantage and disadvantage.[/quote]

Merely reflecting what seemed to be the OP's situation - it looks to me that the battle lines (to use your analogy) have already been drawn.

We will always accommodate requests for compassionate leave and go way beyond the legal requirements to do so. As I implied previously, on the face of it, the OP does not appear to have been well treated.

[/quote]

That makes more sense... I thought it was odd! Amazing, how this medium can scramble meanings :0)

Re: compassionate leave

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 23 May 2012 21:17:34 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]Er... I don't think I'd stay long in the employ of somebody who thought of the employer/employee relationship in terms of who holds which cards.[/quote]

I think that that was what I was trying to say.

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"] You make it sound like a perpetual battlefield of advantage and disadvantage.[/quote]

Merely reflecting what seemed to be the OP's situation - it looks to me that the battle lines (to use your analogy) have already been drawn.

Re: compassionate leave

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:08:47 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

On the face of it, I tend to agree with Wyn, but the employee holds most of the cards here - there are plenty of jobs about for good diligent vets. The only card not in the employee's possession is a right to take time away from work in excess of their contractual entitlement and get paid for it.

[/quote]

Er... I don't think I'd stay long in the employ of somebody who thought of the employer/employee relationship in terms of who holds which cards. I see it as a matter of mutual benefit based on trust and a mutual willingness to be flexible when needed. You make it sound like a perpetual battlefield of advantage and disadvantage.

Re: compassionate leave

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:36:37 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]You've got a mean boss-and that's the opinion of a boss[/quote]

I second that....

[/quote]

'thirded' here!!! Mean!

Re: compassionate leave

Mike Martin — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:22:57 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]You've got a mean boss-and that's the opinion of a boss[/quote]

I second that....

Re: compassionate leave

Mike Martin — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:20:48 GMT

As an employee, worth reading the ACAS website for advice, or telephoning if you have concerns.

The ACAS wesbite states....

Time off for dependants

All employees have the right to time off during working hours for dependants, this time off is intended to deal with unforeseen matters and emergencies. There is no legal right to be paid; however some employers may offer a contractual right to pay under the terms and conditions of employment.

A dependant could be a spouse, partner, child parent, or someone who depends on an employee for care, for example an elderly neighbour.

The leave can be taken for example to:

Deal with a breakdown in childcare
To put longer term care in place for children or elderly relatives
If a dependant fall ill or is taken into hospital
To arrange or attend a funeral.

The right is to a reasonable amount of time off, although it is not stated how much is reasonable. In most cases a day or two will be sufficient to deal with the immediate crisis, but it will depend on the individual circumstances. The employee must tell the employer as soon as possible the reason for the absence and how long they expect to be absent.

Re: compassionate leave

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:01:45 GMT

I am with Martin on this one, I run a small practice and I'd always grant compassionate leave if a close relative dies. We don't have a written policy (should do that, thanks for the reminder Martin) but it's never been put as unpaid leave or holidays. It's not that often that employees lose a very close relative and even my small business can cope with it, although it might cause some inconvenience (for me that is). Most of my employees will do what they can for me in return if I have a problem, so being nice is not wasted on them. I caught the flu last december and all of them volunteered to take my shifts as best as they could! As to the OP: Very sorry for your loss! This seems a boss I would run from.

Re: compassionate leave

nikki — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:40:57 GMT

i got compassionate leave when my dog died. She died suddenly on me at home at 7am on a Sat morning that I was due to work. There was quite frankly no point in me going into work as I was a complete mess. There was never any suggestion of taking that day as holiday or unpaid leave. It may have been counted in my sick pay allowance - I'm not sure as I never use up all my paid sick days. When my gran died that was early on a Monday morning - I didn't go to work that day or the following day and had another day off the following week for the funeral. All of this was given as compassionate leave. There's a reason why I've been there 5yrs and some people have been there for 20yrs plus! We have a really low staff turnover as we're treated with respect and compassion. Having said that, we are a big enough practice to be able to absorb someone being off without needing to employ a locum. I can see why in those situations the procedures might be different.

Re: compassionate leave

Mark Holmes — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:15:51 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I cannot understand why a business would not allow you compassionate leave.[/quote]

If you read the OP it seems that the question is not about being allowed compassionate leave but rather whether or not the employer should pay for the employee to take that leave.

[/quote]

I did read the post, what I didn't express clearly though is that by its very nature compassionate leave is paid. Otherwise its just holiday or unpaid leave. The leave is given with compassion, which it isn't unless its paid.

Requiring somebody to take holiday or unpaid leave puts pressure on them to work, quite probably inappropriately given the nature of our job. Would you want your cardiac surgeon on the point of tears whilst doing your bypass?

Re: compassionate leave

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 23 May 2012 16:02:26 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I cannot understand why a business would not allow you compassionate leave.[/quote]

If you read the OP it seems that the question is not about being allowed compassionate leave but rather whether or not the employer should pay for the employee to take that leave.

Re: compassionate leave

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:15:10 GMT

You've got a mean boss-and that's the opinion of a boss

Wynne

Re: compassionate leave

Mark Holmes — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:07:32 GMT

I cannot understand why a business would not allow you compassionate leave. Frankly consulting can be difficult with normal background emotional noise to contend with. You are hardly going to be in the best position to discuss cases with clients with you head somewhere else.

Re: compassionate leave

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 May 2012 15:03:18 GMT

I would hope this is one of the situations where any employer would try to be flexible. A good employer will do his/her best for an employee and a good employee will do his/her best for the employer.

As an employer I would not want anything taken for granted but would pay for a reasonable absence period. I would be impressed to have a staff member offer to take it as unpaid leave or holiday but would not hold them to that.

A longer absence that put the practice under pressure would be a bit different but that does not seem to be the case here. I doubt that with this attitude there will be a long term employer/employee relationship. I would be very upset to find myself put in this situation and would consider my future but in my own time.

My condolences.

Re: compassionate leave

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 23 May 2012 14:54:43 GMT

My mum died when I'd been in my first job for less than a month. I'd gone to visit her for the weekend and was planning to drive home on the Sunday evening but she was so ill I felt I couldn't leave, I phoned my boss to explain and was told not to come back, but to keep in touch by phone. My mum died on the Monday night. I took the rest of the week off, came back to work for the first 3 days of the following week, then had 2 days off for the funeral. There was no pressure from the practice to come back, and I could have taken the 3 days I worked off as well. I was given all of the time off as paid compassionate leave. I worked for the practice for another 3 years and only left to move nearer girlfriend (who is now my wife).

Re: compassionate leave

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 23 May 2012 13:34:36 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]So now it is written in the contracts that 4 days additional paid leave can be taken for the death of a spouse or immediate family member, 2 days for a close friend or close relative who is not immediate family and one day for a distant relative or friend. Additional time can be taken as holiday.[/quote]

This is extremely reasonable and is better than the government who will give a single days compassionate leave, but for this there's a form to fill out, be approved etc.

Personally I think an employee should be allowed to take more but as unpaid leave if necessary. A recent survey of those close to death asked what they would do differently and not one said 'I wish I'd worked more' At the end of the day, you're looking at the financial side which in the light of things has zero importance. Take it as unpaid leave so you'll have more free time in the future.

Re: compassionate leave

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 May 2012 09:25:11 GMT

After having faced this situation and realising there was no provision in my contracts of employment it was all a bit ad hoc. So now it is written in the contracts that 4 days additional paid leave can be taken for the death of a spouse or immediate family member, 2 days for a close friend or close relative who is not immediate family and one day for a distant relative or friend. Additional time can be taken as holiday. It is not rigidly enforced and for example last month, one nurse's aunt died suddenly and I let her take an additional day as sick leave. That said its a bit different for us bosses, I took one day off for my mother's and father's funerals and had to pay a locum or close up shop for the day.

Re: compassionate leave

plantagenet — Wed, 23 May 2012 09:10:13 GMT

Having been in that situation as an employee, it never occurred to me to take paid leave. I would have been angered if any obstruction had been made to my taking the time off I needed, but would not have expected an employer to finance it. The same applied to my other half with a parent's death. I would try to grant a couple of days paid compassionate leave for immediate family but would struggle to afford much more to be honest.

Re: compassionate leave

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 22 May 2012 23:29:47 GMT

I'm sorry for your loss Matteo, it must have been very hard for you to be so far away

I would start looking for a new job. You have been treated insensitively. We all of us as vets regularly work extra hours, stay late and so on as part of our jobs, without complaint so in a family crisis it is not unreasonable to expect to be looked after. How effective can we be as employees working for an insensitive and money grubbing organisation? If an employer isn't prepared to look after staff at such a terrible time, then they do not deserve any loyalty.

Re: compassionate leave

Louise6732 — Tue, 22 May 2012 23:21:17 GMT

Matteo I'm really sorry to hear about your mum. I lost my dad suddenly last year, my family are in N.Ireland and I work in England, my boss was very supportive and allowed me to take time off, I decided to come back after 1 week but I'm sure I would have been allowed more time had I needed it. This was done as compassionate leave and I wasn't docked pay or holiday allowance. I'm not familiar with the law but it seems it is at the employer's discretion whether they allow you time off or not, unfortuately for you.

I hope you are getting though things without having this extra financial/admin stuff to worry about.

Louise

Re: compassionate leave

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 22 May 2012 23:05:05 GMT

[quote user="Matteo Villani"]she will deduct all 6 days’ pay at the end of this month…she then came back after lunch and said she would compromise and take off 2 days’ pay this month and 4 days’ pay next month even though I had asked specifically to take one day each month for the next 6 months.[/quote]

The enthusiasm of the boss (is she a veterinary surgeon, by the way?) for this sort of nitpicking calculation baffles me. Has she been reading too many management magazines? However, probably, deducting all the days from a single month's pay would be slightly better financially for both of you by saving NIC........ but you'd have to do the sums.

Re: compassionate leave

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 22 May 2012 22:49:01 GMT

Sorry, I shouldn't have suggested that I was answering a question directed at someone else. It was more a reference to those who keep mentioning 'holiday' time. I think Michael referred to it as 'free holiday time' that others weren't getting. I doubt many people would want such 'free' time off.....!!!

No one said that they expect people to immediately be back at work, but neither has anyone said that they don't. Docking pay or expecting someone to take it as 'holiday' gives the impression that the time off is resented in some way. Surely we should be actively telling someone who has lost a parent to stay home for a few days? If nothing else, they will have a funeral to arrange!

Re: compassionate leave

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 22 May 2012 22:23:58 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Is there any reason why your days away from work should not come from your holiday allowance?[/quote]

Maybe because it isn't a holiday, and everyone should have adequate 'down time' during the year?

[/quote]

I would repeat my question, to Matteo. It was not rhetorical.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Do people truly expect someone to be back at work the day after losing a parent/spouse/child, before you've even buried them?[/quote]

No, of course not. Did anyone suggest that?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I know it is inconvenient and has an associated cost, but surely it doesn't happen often enough to be a real problem? I think showing a bit of compassion to someone at what is probably one of the most stressful times in their life is the least any decent employer can do.[/quote]

I quite agree.

Re: compassionate leave

james herriot lied — Tue, 22 May 2012 22:03:34 GMT

Matteo

Deepest sympathy: I have been in the same position myself, and at the time didn't give two hoots whether I got paid for the time off or not. I seem to remember the pay was docked, but in all honesty, the place I was working wasn't exactly where I wanted to be, so pretty much straight after getting back from the funeral, I put my notice in.

The practice owner, with a touching lack of introspection, simply moaned at the fact that my notice period ended just before my weekend on duty, and 'demanded' that I swap weekends with him so that he wouldn't have to sort out extra on-call for anybody. Not sure why now, but I acquiesced - I was just desperate to get out.

I'm afraid that it's not unreasonable to expect that you take at least some of the time out of your holiday allowance or pay, although it sounds like it's being quite insensitively handled (for which reason, I'm with John in considering that you might best have done this anonymously). My OH is a teacher who was allowed some time off for my father-in-law's funeral, but who had to accept docked pay for a recent visit to grandma in hospital. I think they even have some kind of written agreement, for five 'family' days per year.

Your most pressing decision is to decide whether to retain holiday or lose pay: myself, I'd allow the pay to be docked and keep the time off. You may have a bit of a rocky time coming up, and some holiday time could be very helpful.