Kids riding horses on the roads

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 May 2012 15:04:43 GMT

Pitch dark road + pony even at 25-30 miles an hour will cause enough damage to result in the pony needing to be shot. Even the best driver can get caught out over the Forest!

Speed is not really the killer. The killer is ponies and cars in the same space and no fences. I have driven around the New Forest for nearly 30 years and so far have been lucky. I don't automatically blame the drivers. Many are not speeding but are just unlucky!

There are idiots bombing across the Forest but the vast majority drive at or around the legal speed!

Fast cycle speed over a twenty mile journey? I think rather unrealistic! This is a working area and not just a childrens/holiday playground.

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Edward Jones — Wed, 09 May 2012 13:58:00 GMT

Michael - you appear to have issues sharing the road with other users. Get a grip.

Believe me, you don't need to honk your horn to draw attention to yourself before overtaking. Just by being there you have the cyclists attention and you've already indicated that you find it inflammatory - hardly an 'advanced' driving technique. Few cyclists want to hold up a driver for long. Personally, when I worked in the Dales I had no issues with cyclists - invariably you can pass within 30 seconds.

The jockeys in Middleham only ride up to the moor - it's hardly far to have to follow them!

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 May 2012 15:34:19 GMT

We've got good chances of medals cycling, but I'd really like to see the dressage and show jumping Also in with a good chance in dressage, but I'm afraid we have'nt much hope show jumping

Wynne

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 08 May 2012 15:24:24 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

Given the polarisation of opinions and in deference to a colleague with famously populist views promoted with intelligence and diplomacy, I propose that this thread be re-named, "Raw Meaty Bikes"

[/quote] Given the number of times I've come of my bike and removed large amounts of skin and suffered several fractures, perhaps we ought to stick to raw meaty bones after all!

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 08 May 2012 14:58:05 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

The only downer to this is that with an intricate understanding of the Tour de France and a track team pursuit, can I get an Olympic Velodrome ticket - not a chance!!

[/quote]

I also failed - tried in every price bracket for every event and got zip. Also tried for the test event (the World Cup in London at the Velodrome) with similar results. However I did manage tickets to the Paralympic track which should be very good.

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 08 May 2012 14:43:49 GMT

30 years ago as I raced the school bus 6 miles to school and cycle toured around Europe for a month, everyone thought I was eccentric. 20 years ago i started organising large rallies (up to 500 people) and these were pretty unusual. Over the past 6 years I have watched with awe at the rise and rise of cycling in this country. We're a long way behind the Netherlands but for every new person who cycles they will have an understanding of what it's like behind the wheel of a car and this will lead to greater and greater tolarance between all road users. I get treated pretty well on British roads, we comment on the 'nutters' because they are in the very small minority and so are noticable and to be remarked on.

The only downer to this is that with an intricate understanding of the Tour de France and a track team pursuit, can I get an Olympic Velodrome ticket - not a chance!!

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Julian Earl — Tue, 08 May 2012 14:24:56 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

VED is a sin tax and I think a stupid one. I think it should be scrapped completely and the money instead recouped from increased fuel duties. That way the more you drive and hence the more fuel you use and the more pollution you create the more you pay. Simple, transparent, almost impossible to dodge and far cheaper to administer.

[/quote]

Wot Simon said. :thumbsup:

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 08 May 2012 12:27:24 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Sorry Simon VED was present at a flat rate for all cars, called road tax,and all cars neding tax discs long before the government or anybody else became carbon concious , so as far as I'm concerned it's just another damn tax

Wynne

[/quote]

Without going into it too much boring detail - Road Tax ceased to exist in 1937 - abolished by Churchill. Before any of our times I think! He did this exactly because he foresaw that it would give people a false "moral imperative" that they owned the roads. The truth is that the roads are funded by all taxes - there are no "road funds" set aside for the roads. Everyone pays for them whether they personally drive on them or not - because everyone benefits from the roads. Some pay more than others - as I said the Ford Fiestas, Mercedes A Class etc etc do not pay VED. The chap swooshing around on a high end carbon fibre road bike costing up to £5000 (or even £12 000!) can afford to buy it - he likely has a Range Rover or similar at home and is in fact paying far more tax than most. So who has more right to be on the roads - him or the kid in the Fiesta/Ka or similar?

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 08 May 2012 12:20:25 GMT

Given the polarisation of opinions and in deference to a colleague with famously populist views promoted with intelligence and diplomacy, I propose that this thread be re-named, "Raw Meaty Bikes"

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 May 2012 12:00:00 GMT

Wynne

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 08 May 2012 11:53:44 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] If they want to ride on the roads they should legally have pay a small road fund licence I am in favour of a test. . [/quote] Well we've finally invoked the Godwin's law of cycling forums (substitute road fund licence for Nazis). So if cyclists are to pay and if they don't they should suffer a series of restrictions on their use of the highway what do you say to drivers of cars which are exempt? I hope you don't drive a Prius Michael. Perhaps you ought to take your test again - with your attitude I doubt you will pass.

[/quote]

What Car lists over 230 models of car available in the UK that fall in the A band for Vehicle Excise Duty and hence don't pay VED based on emisions (what people mistakenly like to refer to as Road Tax).

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 07 May 2012 18:40:37 GMT

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

David Mills — Mon, 07 May 2012 00:54:51 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

I wear a helmet. I know I shouldn't, I know they are for show only and are rendered completely useless by impacts above 12 miles per hour.

[/quote]

There's a great study somewhere that shows car drivers give a statistically greater clearance to non-helmeters than helmeters.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The most dangerous thing I come across - car drivers breaking recklessly for wildlife in the road. Now I can see if a deer steps out slow down, but a full blown emergency stop for a bunny or pheasant is madness.[/quote]

And then you talk about 'I have emergencies to get to' - can you not see the contradiction at all? How many times does 10 minutes make that much of a difference in veterinary 'emergencies'. Perhaps none.

I can understand your post, but it is typically myopic and perfectly illustrates the attitude of most drivers on the road - trying to squeeze out a few yards, the complete personality change when behind a wheel and that egotistical 'my time is so important' falsehood that is self-perpetuated by constant irritation with other motorists.

[quote user="robloxley"]It's a cr*ppy solution to the problem though; surely the answer is better cycling provision (e.g. more cyclist advance stop boxes) and better enforcement of such provision (which is so much harder politically if cyclists flout the rules, while complaining that they are doing this because motorists flout the rules!)[/quote]

We don't. Yes we do illegal things like go through red lights but we do it mainly for self-preservation, and that's more important than any silly rule. I assume that's why doing in front of the police never, ever, gets any sort of reaction. Or perhaps that's because touching your foot to the floor while you do it technically means you're a pedestrian at that moment...

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Simon Neuhoff — Sun, 06 May 2012 18:28:37 GMT

Julian has out it very well. But to repeat a few points - I pay VED on my car, VAT, NI, MOT, Council Tax, tax on fuel and in fact every other damn tax you care to mention. I pay every bit as much tax as any other road user even though I damage the road less whilst on my bike and don't pollute. What's more I am covered for Third party through British Cycling.

I wear a helmet. I know I shouldn't, I know they are for show only and are rendered completely useless by impacts above 12 miles per hour. They may save me a graze if I fell over at the traffic lights but that's all. In fact all they do is give me a false sense of security but I find it a hard habit to break. That said I totally fail to understand why anybody wants cyclists to wear helmets - they will not save them in an RTA so there is no cost saving to the nation as a whole.

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Julian Earl — Sun, 06 May 2012 12:44:16 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

My main gripe with cyclists stem from the disregard for the rules. We have people on here saying they run red lights. If they want to ride on the roads they should legally have to wear a helmet, pay a small road fund licence and hold 3rd party insurance. I am in favour of a test. [/quote]

My main gripe with motorists is disregard for the rules. Motorists go through red lights frequently, just watch any set of lights at roadworks. Or junctions. Just to save a few minutes.

Compulsory helmets are not a good idea. There is some evidence that helmet-compulsion deters people from cycling, and as cyclists statistically live longer, have fewer days off work and are as fit as non-cyclists ten years younger, it should be encouraged. (Oh, and they don't pollute or clog the roads either. Or require vast parking spaces. Or waste fuel.) More drivers, more passengers and more people in their home die from head injuries than cyclists do so perhaps those sites should be the priority for compulsory helmet-wearing?

Cyclists, generally, don't fall off, they are knocked off and deaths are frequently due to generalised injury not just head injury so trying to enforce helmet wearing on the victims is a nonsense - particularly when cycle helmets are not designed to withstand vehicular impact but only low-speed impacts with the ground. Compulsion to wear a helmet is equivalent to enforcing the wearing of bullet-proof vests following the Hungerford or Dunblane shootings.

On tax: we do pay tax. We pay it on our cars and our income. And VAT on everything. In the absence of hypothecation, we all pay for the roads and we are all entitled to use them. But bicycles don't pollute, wear out the roads, kill three thousand-odd people per year - at a cost of about a million pounds per death IIRC, though that may be out of date - and one could argue, if one were feeling belligerent about this, cyclists should be paid to use the road, not taxed to use it. If I'm going to pay tax on a bicycle then I want the right to use the £40,000,000 per mile fourth lane of the M25 if you don't mind. Currently, that road is out of reach to, hmmmm let's think, oh yes, cyclists. Because the lack of hypothecation means I've paid for my little share, you see.

Insurance is tricky. Many of us are insured through clubs and even on household insurance. But it would be very hard to enforce. Still, only about three people have been killed by cyclists in the last ten (?) years. On the other hand, a significant percentage of pedestrians killed by cars were standing on the pavement at the time? I have the stats somewhere, just not to hand.

A test would be difficult as well, but I'd be all for training at schools and the like.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

The terrain I work in is hilly, the biggest problem with bikes are middle aged people weaving erratically in the road going up a steeper incline at a speed that doesn't register on my speedometer. I have calls to get on. I have emergencies to see. Losing 10 minutes between each call can make the difference of me ending my call list at 4pm or 6 pm. Bloody holidaymakers driving slowly add to my irritation. Don't start me on caravans. Not especially bothered by pet horses - I know most of the local ones. The jockeys in Middleham can be ignorant and ride 4 abreast with skittish horses.

[/quote]

I'm sure you do have emergencies and yes it can be annoying to be held up, but everyone has a right to use the road. Why not ban tractors and trailers as well? Or people walking their dog on a lead down a narrow Devon lane. Where are you going to stop (no pun intended)? Although you're right about caravans, obviously.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

The most dangerous thing I come across - car drivers breaking recklessly for wildlife in the road. Now I can see if a deer steps out slow down, but a full blown emergency stop for a bunny or pheasant is madness. They do get a 5 second burst from the horn. I keep far enough back to stop, but have had to jump on the break a number of times. Idiots. Read the highway code.

[/quote]

As someone who has had no less than three spoilers smashed by indecisive pheasants, I am damn sure I'm going to brake when I see them coming! Perhaps the pheasants round here are deaf.

Edit. I forgot: ...and breeeathe.

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 06 May 2012 00:02:39 GMT

[quote user="i am ed"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="plantagenet"]I have to say I'm much more annoyed by huge packs of cyclists on A roads. Too big to pass safely but slower that I want to get home. [/quote]

Ignorant cyclists who ride two or three abreast rather than keeping to the side of the road.

I am an Advanced Motorist (I have a certificate and a sticker from that, from about 10 years ago) and was taught to honk my horn to let them know I was there before overtaking. The cyclists don't like it. Not one bit. Many of them weave erratically and take up more room on the road.

[/quote]

You're demonstrating your own ignorance.

There's no need to honk at cyclists - your car makes plenty of noise and we know you're there.

[/quote]

The 'Roadcraft' handbook we use for the IAM test is the same handbook that police drivers use. The IAM assessment is done by a serving traffic policeman. They seem to agree that drawing attention to yourself before an overtake manoeuvre is a good move. It's not just my own, harebrained thoughts.

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 05 May 2012 19:38:21 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]other nights the cyclists are just spaced far enough apart that you can overtake one, sit and drive at their speed for a bit then overtake the next one and on and on it goes.[/quote] Oh sorree for using the road and slowing your stately progress. May I show you the other side of the card on this one?: the number of times I'm cycling to work and motorists who are hell bent on overtaking me to gain a few yards advantage then stop at the next parked car which slows me down unless I can overtake again and then whole process is repeated a few yards further on. I find 90% of motorists are very courteous its just that a high percentage have limited spacial awareness and don't overtake even when there's room because they can't judge the width of their cars. Indeed motorists who sit behind for half a mile unable to overtake when I can see there's room and then blame me are as irritating as those who come too close or cut me up. Had you considered your inability to pass the annoying lone cyclist may be related to that Bob?

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Simon Neuhoff — Sat, 05 May 2012 10:02:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

PS We're all veterinary surgeons I would have expected that both in this thread, and the 1 on the Grand National opinion would have been overwhelmingly on the side of safeguarding the horses I seem to be one of the few who puts their welfare 1st It saddens me greatly

Wynne

[/quote]

Wynne as I read this thread everyone is very much in favour of safeguarding the welfare of the horse. There has been some criticism of the rider in the original post for putting this particular horse in a dangerous position because it seems unused to traffic but otherwise everyone is in favour of more considerate and safer driving and cycling too.

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 05 May 2012 09:52:33 GMT

Wynne

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 05 May 2012 09:45:55 GMT

Bob Depends how much of an emergency is an emergency If it's a dog with gastric torsion-fair enough If not then a fast cycle speed is as fast as is reasonable to drive in the New Forest Ponies are killed there every year-by idiot drivers who should never have been trusted with a lethal weapon

Roboxley The city cyclists wouldn't bother me as no-one sensible would consider riding there-and presumably everyone is very well behaved around police horses Country lanes are another matter A modicum of consideration would enable drivers riders and cyclists to co-exist harmoniously It's not the fault of the riders that this is often not the case In spite of the OPs comment "typically arrogant " most riders are courteous to other road users

Wynne

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Rob Loxley — Fri, 04 May 2012 19:44:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]now the vast majority of cyclists are hobby riders[/quote]

Um, if you look at cities where cycling is popular and growing in popularity you'll find that the large proportion of cyclists are commuting, going to the shops, going to school etc. rather than just out for a ride.
Here, a survey suggested that 1 in 5 journeys are made by bike and over 1 in 5 people commute to work by bike (OK I am in a cycle hotspot, but my point remains)

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Bob Russell — Fri, 04 May 2012 16:38:21 GMT

Crossing the New Forest in the evening is a nightmare because there seem to be races/training every other day. Sometimes there is a big bunch of cyclists several abreast and 10-15 along. Very difficult to safely overtake. other nights the cyclists are just spaced far enough apart that you can overtake one, sit and drive at their speed for a bit then overtake the next one and on and on it goes.

Infuriating? Frustrating? Absolutely! A bit more consideration would be good but at the end of the day it is their right to be there as much as mine but a real pain if you have to get from A to B in an emergency!

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 04 May 2012 16:03:28 GMT

I have no quarrel with organised road cycle races-as you say they're invariably well organised-and most importantly advertised in advance-so it's easy to avoid them It's the unofficial races and individual cyclists practicing for races who can go past like loons who annoy me

Wynne

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 May 2012 14:47:53 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Cycle races are legal, that's correct. They are authorised, regulated and monitored by the police and offical cycling bodies and are invariably well-signed when in progress. So horse riders should be able to see that cyclists might be coming past at speed - I am not suggesting cycling necessarily has priority over horse riding, but a pragmatic view would be to be aware when on your horse. [/quote] The problem in the UK is that cyclists are seen as second class citizens and cycle racing as minority, nearly crackpot, sport and motorists, plus it seems some horse riders, resent the fact that the roads are close to them temporarily while a race passes by. I have been involved in a race where some horse riders deliberately rode into the road despite Police motorcycle out-riders telling them to wait and nearly caused mayhem. With the ascent of Mark Cavendish into the mainstream, especially if he wins the Olympic road race, it could be public awareness and acceptance would improve but there's probably still a better chance of seeing an aerial porcine. Look 25 miles across the channel and it is totally different story, most of mainland Europe accepts cycling as a legitimate form of transport and a national sport and motorists are far more knowledgeable and tolerant. Witness the ubiquitous footage on nearly every stage of the Tour de France of citizens not only accepting road closure but anticipating and enjoying a day out to watch,and horse riders gaily galloping alongside in a field to join in the bonhomie. It is not the fault of cycling that there is such conflict amongst other road users in this country it is the national psyche.

Re: Kids riding horses on the roads

Julian Earl — Fri, 04 May 2012 14:18:49 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The reason I've brought in this historicalstuff is cyclists weren't resented when it was a utilitarian means of transport It's just that now the vast majority of cyclists are hobby riders,and they're the ones who race It's illegal to race cars or horses on public highways-but cycle races are legal, and speeding cyclists can alarm horses -as can speeding drivers The drivers are however the worse danger because the consequences to the horse of an impact with a car are so much greater

[/quote]

Cycle races are legal, that's correct. They are authorised, regulated and monitored by the police and offical cycling bodies and are invariably well-signed when in progress. So horse riders should be able to see that cyclists might be coming past at speed - I am not suggesting cycling necessarily has priority over horse riding, but a pragmatic view would be to be aware when on your horse.