Sea Bass

Re: Sea Bass

Gerry Henry — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:25:53 GMT

His point was that the horses are becoming weedier not that there's anything wrong with the race per se.

'Objection sustained'.

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 14:44:19 GMT

Richard Dunwoody ?

I rest my case m'lud

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Gerry Henry — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 14:10:10 GMT

The defenders of this race are becoming fewer and fewer

No, the critics are becoming more vociferous.

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:36:43 GMT

BTW Wren Good luck with the eventing

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:08:50 GMT

Coverage of the GN in yesterdays Horse and Hound ( hardly an extreme animal rights magazine )

FRONT PAGE

Arace we won't forget

Neptune Collonges Kaie Walsh and other National Heroes

Dunwoody Today's horses aren't as robust

Can the race escape bad press

PAGE 4 Thrilling result eclipsed by more controversy

PAGE 5 Article headed Are more changes needed?

What the experts say Briefly Alice Plunkett, Brough Scott David Muir and Roly Owers would like to see changes Choc Thornton and Dominic Elsworth want it left as it is

PAGE 6 Editorial Doesn't want too many changes

PAGES 12 and 13 (Letters ) 1st 2 letters all against the GN and wanting the field considerably reduced 3rd letter from someone who won't watch it again until there are changes 4th letter interesting in that a suggestion was made to follow eventing with a few easy fences to lessen the early falls-my opinion is that the start will probably become even more of a cavalry charge, but the eventers amongst you can give a more informed opinion No letters supporting the race as it stands

PAGES 20-26 Main article on race (Marcus Armitage ) Didn't mention the fatalities till near the end but said Neptune Collonges' owners comment was "My 1st thought after the last was Thank God he's home and well " The owner was in 2 minds about running him When he got to mentioning the fatalities he wrote "It was a grey day for the National in more senses than 1 For the 2nd year running 2 horses were killed"

PAGE 23 Comment column by Choc Thornton In favour of leaving the race as it is

PAGE 25 Comment column by Richard Dunwoody Todays horses are more vulnerable

I'll quote verbatim (hope H&H don't sue me for breach of copyright )

"The overall prifile of Grand National horses has clearly changed from when I 1st rode in the race There are fewer typically bred NH horses and more flat-breds and (potentially ) more fragile lighter-boned horses running in the race There are fewer good old chasing types like we had at trainer Tim Forsters when I started and this has had a real effect on the increase of serious injuries to horses in the race If the statistics are accurate they certainly seem to back it up According to the records only 1 horse suffered a fatal accident jumping the fences in the 60s There were 3 fatalities in the whole of the 80s before there were ever any major changes to the fences 9 have died following jumping accidents in the past 11 runnings "

I notice Dunwoody didn't mention deaths from collapse-or the incidence of pulmonary bleeding in the stables (something racing authorities prefer to keep quiet about ), but although not proven I think he's making a valid point

PAGE 32 Bloodstock column (Sue Montgomery ) Again I'll quote verbatim

"A grey French National winner

Neptine Collanges is like Mon Morne a member of the non-thoroughbred AQPS (Autre Que Pur Sang ) tribe, horses produced in the French Provinces specifically for jumpracing The strain has its roots at the turn of the last century when breeders began to outcross their TBs with other competition breeds to produce strong tough horses for XC steeplechasing "

Seems to bear out what Dunwoody wrote If the horses have changed the race must change to accomodate this (IMHO )

I 've tried not to do a Bernard Ingham and have given a reasonable precis of opinions which both agree and disagree with mine-but for H&H to publish so many opinions critical of the GN as it now stands is very significant The defenders of this race are becoming fewer and fewer

Wynne

Sorry for being so long-winded

Re: Sea Bass

Gerry Henry — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 09:24:52 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[quote user="Wren"]I've got a mountain of tack to clean in preparation for eventing this weekend so I'll have a good think whilst I get on with it and let you know if I come up with anything.[/quote]

Good luck- anywhere nice? Hope the weather is better for you than it was for me Tuesday evening doing dressage in a hailstorm! Might as well have not bothered cleaning the tack

[/quote]

Reminds me of the doncaster show in, oh, I dunno, 1982-ish; snow and raid (equals mud, as any fule kno). We had to do two musical drives each day; I've got a photo (too much of a luddite to be able to upload) of four grinning negroes with funny hats - actually four Kings Troop soldiers, their number 1 dress covered from head to toe (literally) in mud with only the smiles and their medals (polished for the photo) visible.

Re: Sea Bass

Wren — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 22:16:44 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Good luck- anywhere nice? Hope the weather is better for you than it was for me Tuesday evening doing dressage in a hailstorm! Might as well have not bothered cleaning the tack

[/quote]

Thank you - no, not really, only Kelsall Hill. Should have been at Hambleden in the CIC* but that horse has had a hiccup so have made alternate plans. At least dressage is clean(-ish!) and you don't need studs!

Re: Sea Bass

Kate Richardson — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:04:10 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]I've got a mountain of tack to clean in preparation for eventing this weekend so I'll have a good think whilst I get on with it and let you know if I come up with anything.[/quote]

Good luck- anywhere nice? Hope the weather is better for you than it was for me Tuesday evening doing dressage in a hailstorm! Might as well have not bothered cleaning the tack

Re: Sea Bass

Wren — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 20:27:16 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Wren You've answered Kate's question-but not mine

Wynne

[/quote]

Perhaps I don't know the answer?

I've got a mountain of tack to clean in preparation for eventing this weekend so I'll have a good think whilst I get on with it and let you know if I come up with anything.

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 18:32:54 GMT

Wren You've answered Kate's question-but not mine

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Gerry Henry — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 17:27:29 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Mark 1066 for the last English monarch Since then Norman,French, Welsh, Scots, German

Wynne

[/quote]

Thats why I hate the Normans coming over here with all their arrows.... Its a family thing.

[/quote]

Cheap shot.

Re: Sea Bass

Wren — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 17:24:00 GMT

I'll be brief - partly because work beckons and partly because I'm no expert but as far as I'm aware most humans have a myocardial infarction ie. a blockage of the vessels within the myocardium generally caused by arteriosclerosus or similar and broadly attributable to poor lifestyle (diet/exercise/hypertension etc.).

Horses (and more specifically racehorses) generally rupture a thoracic vessel, most commonly the pulmonary artery, aortic arch or atrium and rapidly collapse and die. Occasionally the renal artery is ruptured but I think this is more usually the result of a fall than cardiopulmonary stress.

I think the main point is that with horse 'heart attacks' you're probably dealing with the fittest, most athletic 10% of the population whereas with human heart attacks you're dealing with the least fit and athletic 10%!

I'd be interested to know more about the cause of death in those fit young sportspeople who have Sudden Death Syndrome as they're probably more comparable, though I have a feeling that I might have heard it is due to an electrical disturbance.

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 16:58:50 GMT

I'd like to know the answer to that one as well I agree Kate that a full PM is needed on all these collapses, but even with nervy TBs the incidence of deaths due to collapse is far higher during/following the GN, than ordinary training rides so if not over-riding-then what ? Again serious question requiring scientifically valid answer to exonerate jockeys

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Kate Richardson — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 16:52:23 GMT

Wynne, we would need to know the specific cause of collapse in each case. Until we know that, any further discussion is purely hypothetical. If a ruptured aneurysm is a cause of some or all of the collapses, then we need to know more about why this happened and whether a post mortem revealed any underlying pathology, full worming history etc etc. Over-riding may be factor, I don't know. Maybe someone (Wren?) knows more than I currently do about causes of collapse in racehorses?

Another question for anyone to answer- horses often get reported as having a heart attack. Do they really have a heart attack in the same way a human has a heart attack, or is it really more a case of 'any cardiovascular incident not compatible with life'? Serious question.

Re: Sea Bass

Mark Holmes — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 16:50:34 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Mark 1066 for the last English monarch Since then Norman,French, Welsh, Scots, German

Wynne

[/quote]

Thats why I hate the Normans coming over here with all their arrows.... Its a family thing.

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 16:20:47 GMT

Mark 1066 for the last English monarch Since then Norman,French, Welsh, Scots, German

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 15:44:11 GMT

Kate How do you explain the increased incidence of deaths due to collapse now than years ago when there weren't effective wormers capable of killing lungworm larvae before they had caused aneurisms I can remember when redworm could only be killed as adults, yet there were less collapses in the National then This is a serious question If you can answer it in a scientifically valid way, then fair enough If not, I will continue to thinkthat over-riding is the cause

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 15:36:00 GMT

Gerry To answer that one I would want to know the worming regime since the horse had been in your possession-and just what sort of riding you had been doing, and for how long?

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Kate Richardson — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 15:32:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Further point Gerry Some of the fatalities during the last 20 years have been from collapse as opposed to falling These horses have definitely been over-ridden in the hope of winning[/quote]

I don't think you can categorically say that Wynne. Obviously it firstly depends on the reason for collapse. High blood pressure is likely a part in some reasons for collapsing, such an a ruptured aortic aneurysm, but these are accidents waiting to happen and just as likely to occur in training as on the racecourse. And you really can't compare going for a gallop on your pony with a fully race fit thoroughbred. I have TB, he's not race fit (far from it!) and they are adrenaline junkies! It takes so little for his BP to go up its ridiculous!

Re: Sea Bass

Gerry Henry — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:51:30 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Further point Gerry Some of the fatalities during the last 20 years have been from collapse as opposed to falling These horses have definitely been over-ridden in the hope of winning The same can be said of all horses who bleed after racing (cross ref to recent transexamic DCscandal ) Horses loose in a field will have fun races, but never to the point of pulmonary bleeding

Possibly an AWA prosecution of the jockey-with a custodial sentence, and life-time ban from having charge of an animal next time a horse collapses will change the culture from win at all costs to bring the horse back safely at all costs

Wynne

[/quote]

One of my horses collapsed and died beneath me years ago; got the hunt to cut him up; ruptured aortic aneurism into the p/cardium. Custodial sentence or just a fine for that one? We're never going to agree on this one; I love horses but they are there for me not the other way about (though when attending a foaling/colic at 3 in the morning it doesn't seem like it somehow).

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 12:30:51 GMT

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 12:08:56 GMT

Gerry The jockey will be aware the horse is tiring before it's apparent to anyone else Admittedly my only experience of "race " riding is a gallop on the mountain with other riders from the same stable My horse is a Sec D so I hardly ever win the race, and often finish at a trot ! My point being that at the start my horse wants to gallop flat out, but when she chooses todrop to a trot,I let her, although an outsider might not think she was visibly distressed-in fact she's not even sweating I know there's a world of difference between that and the GN but a rider will know a horse is tiring before anyone else, and over the GN fences a tired horse can have a nasty fall

How to get over the high number of fallers at the 1st 3 fences I don't know These are also included in the other 2 races run on the same course, which have recently avoided fatalities Why? Could it be that the higher prestige of the National leads to more determined riding ? How to alter that ? Would jockeys be less keen to get in front early if the field was smaller ? An awful lot of questions,but for the sake of the horses, just carrying on with more of the same isn't an option

To be honest, since the AWA places upon owners a responsibility to protect animals from injury (as opposed to the previous causing unnecessary suffering ) I'm surprised the race hasn't been legally challenged by a criminal prosecution of an owner whose horse has been injured

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:53:16 GMT

Thanks Wren I've read the article and the comments Certainly seems to support a smaller field

Wynne

Re: Sea Bass

Kate Richardson — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:53:35 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

Kate, I can't believe a jockey would push a too tired horse just for a finish. We all know that tiredness is a big factor in jumping injuries, with such minute camera coverage nowadays, the jockey wouldn't dare - IMHO - risk the wrath of trainer and owner by pushing the horse beyond its natural limits in such a demanding race. You don't need to be an expert to know when a horse is done in, its time to pull up and head for home, no shame in that. Re the prestige thing, I think most of us admire anyone who's ever rode in the National whether they finish or not, it is - to me - immaterial; I admire their guts for even entering. Its a great race, long may it continue.

[/quote]

I don't think any jockey would push an obviously tired horse on, I am just wondering if there are occasions when the adrenaline factor takes over, in the horse as much if not more than the jockey, where they just take it steady over the last part of the race and aim to complete, but they are actually more tired than it appears, and does this lead to incidents. I am not saying it does happen, I don't know, it was just a thought.

Re: Sea Bass

Gerry Henry — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 09:55:39 GMT