Daily Mail article on carprofen

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Kate Richardson — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:30:06 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

Red stars from the Daily Mail readers! ;-)

Kate have given you 5 stars to offset the red from our oh so sensitive DM reader.

[/quote]

Thanks! Am I bovered though?

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Kate Richardson — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:22:20 GMT

Maybe Pete Wedderburn (great response on the blog by the way) should add the u tube clip to the blog!

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:04:25 GMT

Red stars from the Daily Mail readers! ;-)

Kate have given you 5 stars to offset the red from our oh so sensitive DM reader.

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

James Laidlaw — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:41:21 GMT

"They" are great live if you ever get a chance.

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:42:26 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]It's also just one guy...

[/quote]

Yes. Which makes this even more funny:

www.youtube.com/watch

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

James Laidlaw — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:23:16 GMT

It's also just one guy...

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Kate Richardson — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:11:46 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

Got to say this is entirely in keeping with what I expect from the "Daily Heil". They show a cheerful disregard for the truth in their never ending attempts to outrage middle England with their stories of outlaw cyclists, criminal Muslims, etc etc. As others have pointed out they are also breathtakingly hypocritical - capable of demonising one week and praising the next.

These guys put it well.

www.youtube.com/watch

[/quote]

That is brilliant!!!

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:41:04 GMT

These guys put it well.

www.youtube.com/watch

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:24:00 GMT

Although I'm cross with the Mailfor constantly unfairly criticising my beloved profession-on the whole I agree with most of what's written in it-and they do have a good record for defending animal welfare There's an inspirational article today about a woman who's recuing stray dogs in Mauritius

Wynne

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:02:25 GMT

When I left Europe for Africa in the 70's, there were no NSAIDs, certainly not for animals. Steroids were (mis) used widely for the same indications as now NSAIDS. When I returned to practice in 2007, one enormous difference was the use of NSAIDs as a complementary for almost everything. Obviously it has the potential to make any painful condition better so why not?

Well, in the later 80s I was working on tropical diseases in goats, and a colleague investigating trypanosomiasis used this wonderful drug flunixin in goats. If you gave goats with trypanosomiasis flunixin, the numbers of trypanosomes in the blood rose spectacularly. Great if you needed to harvest this protozo for your work. Unfortunately it soon became clear that there were very serious side effects, stomach ulcers, which would easily kill the goats.

Years later I myself was put on ketoprofen after a back operation and I hated it, they felt like burning straight through my stomach. Here in UK I am only ever prescribed NSAIDs by my GP in combination with stomach protectants (omeprazole).

Therefore I have never considered these drugs as the harmless supportive drugs to hand out like sweeties. I believe that meloxidyl is a bit safer because of its selective COX inhibitory effect. And why does hardly anybody advise the very safe and effective paracetamol for dogs?

We always advise clients, especially in first time users od NSAIDs, to immediately stop and come back if there is any vomiting, diarrhoea, blood in faeces or signs of stomach pain.

The problem of course is that it is such a wonderful drug in older animals with aches and pains! And that nothing is100% safe ever, life always ends in death anyway, and don't we all do (some of) these wonderful but risky or unhealthy things anyway - smoking, drinking, horsebackriding, cycling in London and soforth andsoforth?

Mariette

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Pete Wedderburn — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:52:06 GMT

I've written a blog on this for the public

http://www.vethelpdirect.com/vetblog/2012/04/10/could-carprodyl-kill-your-dog/

I've taken a pause from doing Telegraph blogs which is a shame - articles like the Mail one are ill informed and sensationalist. One of the problems is that the mainstream media really don't seem to take animal issues very seriously. Makes it difficult to get the right message out there.

Pete

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:47:13 GMT

The questions I would like answered would be :

Was pre-treatment blood testing a) offered

b) accepted?

Was the dog Cushinoid (age group ) , so steroid and NSAID?

Is it in a lungworm area?

Any access to warfarin,or algae contaminated water?

Wynne

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Julian Earl — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:34:19 GMT

We've only seen two cases of gastric ulceration in doigs on carprofen and both were Rotties. Weren't the dogs in America all related chocolate Labradors? So making an entirely unscientific leap, could there be some genetic susceptibility to carprofen in addition to the "usual" NSAID effects?

Secondly, a factual question: carprofen has been in the UK for much longer than ten years surely? It was first introduced as Zenecarp by C-Vet and that was donkey's years ago. I mention it because I'm sure C-vet advertised it early on by using a (yellow) Labrador puppy that had eaten " a whole tub of tablets" or something without adverse effects. That was fairly impressive in the days of phenylbutazone.

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:47:14 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]Curiously whenever there's been an NSAID media scare it always seems to involve Carprofen[/quote]

have you not heard: metacamkills.com

[/quote]

I stand corrected!

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

David Mills — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 00:36:23 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Does this not all count as bringing the profession into disrepute? Do the RCVS plan to release a statement? We have already had a client call to ask if we have given her dog carprodyl today... People need to be informed, which we do in clinic, but a prompt public reply would do well to reassure the public amongst this scaremongering.

[/quote]

What you really need, Mr Laidlaw, is a membership organisation to help....as opposed to a quote from a past president buried in their 'newsroom'. Hmmm.

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Rob Loxley — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:16:26 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]Curiously whenever there's been an NSAID media scare it always seems to involve Carprofen[/quote]

have you not heard: metacamkills.com

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

James Laidlaw — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:50:28 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

May not be the same vet, Paul Grant but 'ere we go again!

http://paulgrantholisticvet.com/

[/quote] Interesting to note that on the Paul Grant website there's all the anti-commercial diet RMB stuff, but on the Tender Paws website they sell a range of commercial diets? Hypocritical much? I assume cynically this is all good advertising for him in an economic downturn too.

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

James Laidlaw — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:32:21 GMT

Does this not all count as bringing the profession into disrepute? Do the RCVS plan to release a statement? We have already had a client call to ask if we have given her dog carprodyl today... People need to be informed, which we do in clinic, but a prompt public reply would do well to reassure the public amongst this scaremongering. 13 year old dog, no info on pre medication bloods, no info on dosing, not seen for 6 days on meds, only getting one side of the story - can't really draw any conclusions from this.

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:00:40 GMT

It would be interesting to know if there are decent, big studies comparing the safety of various nsaids. I certainly use Carprofen regularly but I also use Meloxicam and Troxocil. Curiously whenever there's been an NSAID media scare it always seems to involve Carprofen - how's that for anecdotal evidence! Continuing in the same vein the only fatal nsaid reaction I've seen was using Meloxicam - a Weimaraner with a perforating gastric ulcer (asymtpomatic till in extremis!) and it occurred within a week of starting the meloxicam. Reported of course.

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:14:51 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

[quote user="Emma Cooper"]

And another thing...

It appears the owners are turning this into a campaigning issue and have written to the RCVS...

[/quote]I don't see how the RCVS can do anything at all with this unless cause of death was confirmed at Post mortem . Even then, could be put down to an idiosyncratic reaction. As I said in my original post, only a meta-analysis of data to compare rates of adverse reactions with carprofen vs other NSAIDs would carry any weight anyway......

[/quote]

Unless they are blaming the vet for not informing them of the risks of giving 'real' medicines rather than sweeties! Informed consent?

It seems they are not blaming the vet so contacting the RCVS will be a bit pointless. Sadly side effects happen, old dogs get liver and kidney problems.

I would be a lot more alarmed if the product was a new drug with a much briefer track record, than one that had been around for years.

(I still prefer meloxicam tho'!)

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:50:31 GMT

I use carprofen as my NSAID of choice in dogs in tablet form and as a starter in cats with the injectable form and have never had an adverse reaction of which I'm aware. There are of course potential side effects with any NSAID, however, if a dog is going to be on a prolonged course I do always warn owners of this and there are instructions on the dispensing label to give with food and stop if the patient in anorexic or vomiting. Plus I advise blood testing before a course and at intervals while on it - the problem then comes that owners sometimes think I'm ripping them off so basically we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I haven't read the article, I wouldn't lower myself to do so but it is so predictable. If people are going to make decisions based on reading an article in the DM rather than listening to my advice then do I really want them as clients? Am I bovvered?

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Christopher Saul — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:09:34 GMT

[quote user="Emma Cooper"]

And another thing...

It appears the owners are turning this into a campaigning issue and have written to the RCVS...

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

David Mills — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:08:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

May not be the same vet, Paul Grant but 'ere we go again!

http://paulgrantholisticvet.com/

[/quote]

Yes it is. Perhaps homeopathic vets should stick to homeopathic medicine after all.

What an irresponsible twit running off to the DM - how very Jeremy Kyle.

The whole thing does reek of deflection though. Wonder if the dog was on any homepathic or 'herbal' medicine at the same time - wouldn't it be a tragic irony if the mumbojumbo had negatively interacted with the real medicine?

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:45:43 GMT

It could be argued that the vet should have blood tested/recommended testing in such an elderly animal to ensure renal and hepatic function was adequate to minimise the risk. This was an elderly lab after all. A realistic attitude from the vet might have saved the owners from what is likely to be a long and stressful campaign which is unlikely to end with an acceptable outcome for the owners.

I have rarely used Carprodyl (one dog happily settled on it) but I wonder if there is a bit of 'deflection' of responsibility here. If a complaint is being made to the RCVS it is, presumably against the prescribing vet. Is he making a particular song and dance about it to make a point or apportion blame elsewhere?

A homeopathic vet cannot make a patient worse by prescribing magic sugar pills but my view is that they cannot make them better either. Medicines come with side effects as well as often major benefits.

Carprophen can and does have serious and very occasionally fatal side effects but so do many, many other medicines. It is not a mass killer or it would have been withdrawn from the market many years ago. The article states that it is being given to millions of dogs throughout the UK and the world. Tragic though this is for the owners surely this suggests a very safe drug?

I would prefer to take a risk that my dog would be the one in many thousands to suffer severe side effects so she can live out her old age in comfort. Our Staffie is on a certain monthly NSAI for a trial period but is just as likely to return to meloxicam which can also have severe side effects including death (but very rarely does).

Are owners aware enough of the risks? Perhaps not!

Re: Daily Mail article on carprofen

Emma Cooper — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:02:10 GMT

And another thing...

It appears the owners are turning this into a campaigning issue and have written to the RCVS...

The story has appeared in local papers and been picked up by the Express - and it appears Mrs McGibbon is an ex-journo (so maybe more motivated to drum-up press on the subject...).

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/leisure/pets/news/9619899.Bickley_couple_campaigning_for_drug_to_be_outlawed_after_beloved_dog_dies/

I'm not sure what to do with the story really, beyond report it happened and the tabloids are making a fuss - but I thought there might be broader issues of interest for the profession relating to SARs or appropriate info...