Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Bob Russell — Sat, 07 Apr 2012 11:02:33 GMT

We used VetCall (now Vets Now) and I have to say they have always been quite sensible with advice. Cases requiring seeing they advise it (not all clients go though). Simple things such as the six month female cat rolling around in agony, 'must have been poisoned' have had the 'she is in season' advice and the owners can go back to bed with ear plugs in.

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Mark Rowland — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:55:16 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Telephone advice is something I am adamantly opposed to-and Vets Now giving incorrect telephone advice to a client was the reason I left them

I restrict telephone advice to 3 words only

BRING IT IN

Wynne

[/quote] Which is why people offering cheaper phone advice will succeed if we are perceived in the eyes of the client just to be after the ooh consult fee which I assume will be far more expensive than the phone call

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 20:30:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I restrict telephone advice to 3 words only

BRING IT IN

[/quote]

3.00 (am): "my kittens are 10 days old and they haven't opened their eyes yet"

Sunday afternoon: "my cat's got a tick"

Weekday 21.00: "my 5-year old crossbreed has just vomited - no, there's no diarrhoea, no blood, and he's bouncing about outside now"

etc. etc. etc.

There are many occasions where I'll ask questions, and then advise that the animal does not need seeing out of hours based on the answers. It is not fair to lumber owners with unnecessary out of hours fees by insisting that every animal an owner phones about needs to be seen right away. I always tell them to call back if there is any worsening at all, offer to see them anyway if they'd prefer that, and in any case, advise them to bring it in in the morning. There is a definite place for telephone advice... just not from insurance companies charging our clients money for it.

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Rob Loxley — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 13:36:08 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Is this additional service aimed at reducing insurance claims or is it to improve animal health? [/quote]

Or just another way of making money out of clients?

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 13:11:28 GMT

Telephone advice is something I am adamantly opposed to-and Vets Now giving incorrect telephone advice to a client was the reason I left them

I restrict telephone advice to 3 words only

BRING IT IN

Wynne

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Bob Russell — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:04:24 GMT

The owner is adamant that the person at the end of the line did not suggest contacting their VS. I have no objection to general advice but this was a kitten with acute, severe vomiting and diarrhoea.

This advice line is owned/run by a vet! the nurses work from 'home offices'.

Is this additional service aimed at reducing insurance claims or is it to improve animal health?

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Rob Loxley — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:18:41 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]My point is that in most practices and ooh clinics there is a vs available to ask for advice/backup if required. I would want that to be the case here also.[/quote] I see your point

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Cat Henstridge — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:07:09 GMT

I work as a vet on a social networking site for pet owners answering questions and you would be amazed at the things I have been asked in the past; from dogs with purulent vulval discharges to chonic lameness problems to ones posted in the middle of the night about what are clearly emergency cases. I give advice but always advise contacting their own vet, often pointing out the 24 hour commitment. I have found once you have told them to speak to their vet and given a reason why, most are more than happy to do so. I think the reasons they don't are variable but range from not wanting to bother their vet to just assuming they will be told to make an appointment and be charged.

However, given the ubiquity of the internet and the fact most people use it to research stuff or answer questions (don't you?) it isn't that surprising that people don't simply pick up the phone to us, especially during out-of-hours (although it does make you wonder how many aren't ringing in-hours as well). They can't get hold of their dentist or doctor when they are closed, so many probably assume they can't with us either. Maybe this is a wake-up call for us to be clearer about the ability for people to contact us out-of-hours, perhaps the RCVS could shift some of the PSS advertising budget to that instead

Cat

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Jon RUBEN — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:06:59 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]I agree his is a potentially dangerous situation. It may be that this vn feels they do not need backup but probably fails to realise the potential danger they could be putting the animal or themselves in. I don't know the ins and outs but if this vn doesn't have veterinary back up they could be setting themselves up for a real fall. It also sets a very dangerous precedent for those non vets who may think they can go on to set up their own private ooh paid advice service. It would get a lot of service with ooh centres charging so much. Where is the college on this issue ........ Candidates? Hope one or more responds but so far I have been decidedly unimpressed with avoidance of real issues affecting us on a regular basis. Gosh I'm a cynic n'est pas ? Le sigh

[/quote]

Hi Mark - First, I think many of the candidates have been having quite lengthy debates with you regulars on the forums. Richard Tom David Edward and Kit to name but five.

So my main response is: There should be no necessity for a 'vetline' run by an external group. Currently, whether we like it or not, all vets have to provide a 24 hour service. (even vaccine clinics for the 1st 24 hours). That 24 hour service includes OOH advice normally from the vet on call or from a nurse with the back up of a vet on the premises or a phone call away.

I would say that well over 50% of my OOH calls do not result in a call out. I don't know what the figures for Vets Now are but judging from the faxes/emails I have seen from them, the figures are not dissimilar and always with advice to contact their own vet in the morning. All of this is FOC.

I'm not sure on the regulatory powers the RCVS has on this but it is certainly worth following up. But in the meantime, I would suggest we start letting clients know that our OOH phone service is free when handing out insurance leaflets, giving out puppy packs, sending out vaccine reminders etc, designing our websites etc.

This may be something for the BVA also to get involved in. I know we cannot officially advise on what pet insurer should be used but it may be worth the BVA or SPVS talking to the rogue insurers and pointing out that this sort of behaviour is not going to make vets enthusiastic about their companies.

I would just like to make it clear that the above line is not an attack on the reputable pet insurers but the two or three (and we all know who they are) who quibble about every claim and set up 'services' like this.

In summary, I am not saying that a 'Vetline' may be illegal in itself (although this certainly bears further investigation) but certainly our clients should be informed of we as the veterinary profession already provide.

Jon

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Jon RUBEN — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:06:58 GMT

[/quote]

Hi Mark - First, I think many of the candidates have been having quite lengthy debates with you regulars on the forums. Richard Tom David Edward and Kit to name but five.

Jon

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Mark Rowland — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:02:33 GMT

My point is that in most practices and ooh clinics there is a vs available to ask for advice/backup if required. I would want that to be the case here also.

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Rob Loxley — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 18:55:22 GMT

I would hope any qualified VN is capable of giving sound advice, as many practices and OOH providers have the VN (rather than VS) answering the phones.

My major concern is that insurance companies offer such services without making clear the cost to the client (especially compared to just phoning their vet) and that it is not clear whether the insurance companies get a kickback from the service provider nor whether any pressure (direct or indirect) is made to encourage/discourage OOH visits. I can hardly believe insurance companies offer this service out of the kindness of their hearts alone? Maybe I'm too cynical?

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Mark Rowland — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 16:36:09 GMT

I agree his is a potentially dangerous situation. It may be that this vn feels they do not need backup but probably fails to realise the potential danger they could be putting the animal or themselves in. I don't know the ins and outs but if this vn doesn't have veterinary back up they could be setting themselves up for a real fall. It also sets a very dangerous precedent for those non vets who may think they can go on to set up their own private ooh paid advice service. It would get a lot of service with ooh centres charging so much. Where is the college on this issue ........ Candidates? Hope one or more responds but so far I have been decidedly unimpressed with avoidance of real issues affecting us on a regular basis. Gosh I'm a cynic n'est pas ? Le sigh

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Bob Russell — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 15:53:35 GMT

We provide cost efficient, quality care designed to help you and you pet when you most need it, regardless of the time of day.
CALL DIRECT NOW ON:
01728 727673 (fixed fee £9.50)
or 09065 00 55 00 (charged at £1.53 per min plus network extras)

Word for word from the website. What care? This was a young kitten. It is fine to say calls are recorded and this might have been useful if for example the cat had died as long as the company released the recording.

How much protection would a listed VN have got if things had gone wrong? A trip to the DC and dismissal from the job or a very supportive environment and a company backing him or her up?

For most clients this service would have been 'free' from their own practice or OOH service and if anything would urge the patient to be seen as opposed to £9.50 for someone to (potentially) give advice that stopped a client taking a pet to the Vet.

This is being sold as a service whereas in reality it is potentially dangerous,potentially illegal as well as expensive.

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Rob Loxley — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 14:56:37 GMT

Some thoughts

Many people phone the practice for advice and are given such by our own receptionists and VNs and we are happy for this?
I'd be happy if vetfone are giving sensible advice, particularly it may be better than the client consulting the internet... I don't know but I'm sure plenty of calls end with advising the client to go to the vet OOH where they might not have done otherwise?
Vetfone certainly claim to record all calls, so if the line between advice and diagnosis has been crossed there should be an audit trail?
The fact the 01728 number costs £9.50 (where it looks outwardly to be a normal national rate number, rather than 'premium') is a surprise to me; I guess would be a surprise to the owner, but maybe explains why more insurance companies are 'offering' this service...

Has anyone had any insurance claims declined (by Tesco, M&S etc.) because clients haven't phoned Vetfone before presenting the animal OOH?

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Bob Russell — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 12:46:57 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Good advice or not?[/quote]

NOT! If it was an adult cat or dog then it would have to be quite off colour for me to see it in the middle of the night (if the middle of the night was as bleak as it was here!) but a kitten is a different story. They can go down hill very fast. If the kitten was bright I might have chanced it, but on the instruction if it deteriorates then get back in touch. If I was awake (even if midnight) I'd try to get them to bring it down.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]All calls to this vetline cost £9.50 fixed fee or £1.53 per minute plus network extras. Hope they all have good insurance![/quote]

Suddenly things get a lot clearer!

[/quote]

My views entirely! How many kittens do you see with acute vomiting and diarrhoea? I have to say I don't see that many so I would generally want to see it or if bright and bouncy might just chance it but would obviously qualify it with a phone back if it continues to vomit.

I am not sure if insurance companies give out a standard rate number for their clients but this has to be a way of reducing the number of OOH trips to the vet.

I checked carefully and the owner was not advised to contact their own vet at any time. I accept I am getting one side of the story but this helpline is available to Tesco clients in this case but I think other Sun Alliance underwritten policy holders.

The kitten seems fine at the moment so the advice was not disastrous in this case but it might have been. The owner had the good sense to book the kitten in for a check this morning.

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 12:04:18 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Good advice or not?[/quote]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]All calls to this vetline cost £9.50 fixed fee or £1.53 per minute plus network extras. Hope they all have good insurance![/quote]

Suddenly things get a lot clearer!

Re: Insurance 'Vet Lines'!

plantagenet — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 10:50:17 GMT

Definitely don't like some one else meddling in my cases and don't like telephone diagnosis.