wages v experience, its a girls life

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Utlendigur — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 22:57:17 GMT

[quote user="Colin Thomson"]

I hope that's of interest.

Colin

[/quote]

It is - thanks for that!

(PS Not a raging feminist - I was just curious as to why it was omitted and what the reasons were for the difference if there was one)

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 22:38:34 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]This is my 3rd period of locum work. 15 years ago, probably £120/day, assume inflation 3% = £187, assume inflation 4% = £216, which is about where we stand today, so this is about right.[/quote]

Using actual inflation data from This is Money , £120 on 1997 would be £176 now. We have experienced 47% inflation in the last 15 years.

Ian

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:30:31 GMT

Back of an envelope calculation this one

This is my 3rd period of locum work. 15 years ago, probably £120/day, assume inflation 3% = £187, assume inflation 4% = £216, which is about where we stand today, so this is about right.

All jobs carry stress, my brother is a banker for HSBC, he works all hours that are sent and an engineer friend recently stayed. He's paid slightly more than me, but had a presentation due Monday and spent the Sunday on the laptop, no time of in lieu for that.

With the increase in social media and internet access, I do wonder why nearly all practices use locum agencies. By looking about practices can save that daily fee which would have benefit for locum and practice alike.

We all (and I include myself on occasion) think the grass in greener, if you enjoy the job, and I do, then time skips by and lunch is for wimps!!

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Bob Russell — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:05:57 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]I bet you gave the keyboard some stick as you were typing that!![/quote]

I actually deleted the last line as it was a bit, erm, inflammatory.

Clive:

I absolutely agree that vets, as a whole, earn too little. But I don't think we should be ripping clients off with hidden costs (such as a written prescription for £35 - if the NHS does charge that much it is because they are a monopoly and we have no choice) while offering loss-leading neutering. I don't do either at my practice. Oh, and if my clients think I am too expensive they can **** off.

[/quote]

The fees charged by doctors are usually outside the NHS and are a nice little earner. they pay for that extra bottle of wine at the end of a nice meal out.

A reasonable fee is one that covers the time, effort and ar*e covering required every time a vet signs a bit of paper. £35 would be hard to justify. £10-12 is not!

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Clive Ansell — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:55:55 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]

[/quote]

maybe/maybe not?

Back in 1997 in my first job we were a busy 3 vet practice and were faced with the opening of 2 local low cost clinics who were offering £20 dog castrates and £35 bitch speys. We had a meeting and decided that we could not or would not compete on price. We decided to increase the standard of work; move from halothane to iso, thio to propofol, get a blood machine etc etc and put prices up by around 15%. We finished up doing less work better, being less stressed, making more profit and above all off loading all the complaining, moaning, whining rectal orifices and bad debtors overnight.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:45:03 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]I bet you gave the keyboard some stick as you were typing that!![/quote]

I hope not, keyboards cost money

The main problem is practice owners are caught between 2 rocks - clients who think we are expensive and staff who want more pay. Personally I would tend to side more with the staff and would love to increase charges by 25% overnight and put it to wages but in the real word, that ain't happening! At least not in these austere times. I would hate any minimum charges / wages - this is a free market and things will run better for all if there is less interference from up high. I am also not aware of any major gender differences. I suspect it may just be that men are more upfront about asking for higher pay. We pay the same to our male and female staff, vets or nurses (no male receptionists yet).

Ian

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Cat Henstridge — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:30:39 GMT

[quote user="Colin Thomson"]

Well that didn't take long. As I suspected the gender differences are now published in the SPVS Salary Survey - and have been since 2009. As Utlendigur says, there is a difference between males and females, with males being paid more at nearly all stages in their careers - less so in the early years but increasing until about 15 years post graduation, after which the difference reduces until females wages overtake male at 20+ years post qualification.

If you want to see the whole gender analysis from the 2009 survey, I've split that out from the main survey and that can be viewed/downloaded from

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30168897/SPVS2009GA.pdf

[/quote]

What's interesting about the SPVS survey is women who work part time are paid more than men, which doesn't appear to be restricted to the veterinary profession as this article shows;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118538/Part-time-jobs-better-paid-women.html

Although they seem to think the difference is down to men who work part-time being more likely to be in lower paid jobs, so I wonder what the reason is in our profession?

I am a locum and I charge £200+vat per day and haven't increased this for 3 years (maybe I should!). I enjoy my work and being in charge of my own destiny and feeling I am being paid what I am worth make it all the better. You should be getting at least £200 per day and, as Clive mentioned, check how much the locum agencies are taking, sometimes it is an astonishing amount!

Cat

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:57:16 GMT

When I have been to job interviews I have often found that salary is not discussed unless I raise the issue at the end of the interview, and when I do raise it the usual response has been to ask me how much I want. I have talked to other vets who haven't discussed salaries until after they have accepted a job offer, and have accepted lower salaries than they would have liked without trying to negotiate. Practices have to make a profit and they aren't going to pay any more than they have to. If you want more money you need to be pro-active.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:50:40 GMT

Please note that this does not in any way whatsoever reflect my own views - it was sent to me quite out of the blue by an old school friend via facebook:

"If I had a business, I would never be sexist. Presented with two equally qualified candidates for a job, I would choose the woman every time - it saves a fortune in wages."

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:44:13 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]I bet you gave the keyboard some stick as you were typing that!![/quote]

I actually deleted the last line as it was a bit, erm, inflammatory.

Clive:

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Clive Ansell — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:15:23 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

We are private businesses, not the state sector. There is no rule to dictate what we pay. Therefore, people get paid what the practice can afford and will reflect what they are worth to the practice. If you aren't valued, you'll be paid less than someone who is. Some practices value their staff, some don't. If you feel underpaid as a vet then the only option is to do something else.

[/quote]

True enough, but the ingrained and default position of the veterinary profession seems to be to charge as little as possible to undercut the neighbour and appease clients with the inevitable consequence of driving down terms, conditions and salaries for all members. As a profession, we are drastically undercharging for our professionalism and our time (comparable professions=law, medicine, dentistry), and the animal owning public are getting a cheap service. In a recent thread on prescription fees there was a mention that a fiver was unethical for a professionally signed legal document that a GP would charge £35 for.

In the south midlands where most of my work is there are far too many practices competing for a finite amount of work, which seems to be resulting in most practices joining the race to the bottom by trying to undercut each other with cheap vaccines, bitch speys for <£100, all in dentals for £45 etc etc. Maybe it is time to see if Tesco need any shelf stackers after all?

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:42:42 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

In my limited experience employers do not set a salary on gender, but do base it on loyalty, experience and your skill set. Therefore if you have changed jobs a lot this will affect your pay. I think women tend to move jobs more than men between the ages of 20-40 and this probably has an influence on their earnings. But that is just my amateur opinion.

As has been said, everyone has options.

[/quote]

I bet you gave the keyboard some stick as you were typing that!!

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:02:29 GMT

As has been said, everyone has options.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Colin Thomson — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:53:18 GMT

[quote user="Colin Thomson"]

If you want to see the whole gender analysis from the 2009 survey, I've split that out from the main survey and that can be viewed/downloaded from

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30168897/SPVS2009GA.pdf

[/quote]

This years SPVS Salary Survey is still open for input - for another week only - at http://www.questform.co.uk - username "Salary 2012" password "salary" (without the quotes). We've had a good response so far, but the more vets who complete it, the more representative it becomes. This year all vets who complete the survey, and are not already members can have 3 months free membership of SPVS - just follow the links at the end of the survey. Thus at least you'll have access to the survey results - and all the other surveys and SPVS member benefits as well!

Colin

(I'm trusting our benevolent dictator won't be too cross about this blatant plug....)

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Bob Russell — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:17:03 GMT

My impression of the veterinary profession is that gender plays very little role in pay and conditions. I have never worked in a practice that discriminated between the sexes. Female vets do tend to work in more part-time positions.

It is a difficult profession to make profit and this trickles down to employees. It is getting more difficult every year. Fee levels are being suppressed because there is always someone willing to stack-em higher and sell-em cheaper. The profession as a whole pays the price for very low fees and narrow margins seen especially in the 'over-vetted' areas.

When I qualified many partners really made their money on the property owned by the partnership. Inflation made the initial purchase price much less significant after a few years and rising property prices created a nice retirement nest egg.

None of this happens now. Low or zero inflation reduces profit. Borrowing continues to drain practices and individuals and property prices are at best fairly stagnant.

My suggestion is that you rethink your profession. I don't think it is going to get much better in the medium term.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Colin Thomson — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:02:04 GMT

[quote user="Colin Thomson"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

That's odd. A few years ago I asked SPVS why the survey showed every category/combination of category except gender, and was told that it was because the survey did show there was a statistically significant difference, from the day 1, continuing through to experienced vets. The reason given for not publishing the figures was that they didn't want employers using them to perpetuate the gender difference. My argument that it would be better out in the open so as to investigate the reasons (valid or not), especially since the difference was apparently consistent over many many years ie the status quo wasn't working, was to put it mildly like pouring petrol on a fire, and I must admit I was so shocked by the attitude of a few SPVS members that I cancelled my membership - maybe things have changed...

[/quote]

I speak with a semi official SPVS voice (being Treasurer) but - I'd be VERY surprised if that were the case now. But I've asked the collective SPVS memory for more information and I'll try to trawl through some raw data tomorrow or over the weekend. I'll report back either way.

Colin

[/quote]

If you want to see the whole gender analysis from the 2009 survey, I've split that out from the main survey and that can be viewed/downloaded from

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30168897/SPVS2009GA.pdf

I hope that's of interest.

Colin

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Clive Ansell — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 07:59:55 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

As a female working in New Zealand, I have battled against the paying of females less than males for many years. It seems that this situation is still continuing in nz and the uk and neither vet governing body have done anything to address it. It seems that anyone who tries to stand up for themselves, or create some kind of union, especially females, are branded trouble makers and henceforth are blackballed from jobs in this small and incestuous profession. Associated with this, is the continual disgustingly lowpaid wages we are offered, with no increase for experience, so that new grad locums and 10+ year qualified vets are paid the same rate - a 'day' used to consist of 8 - 9 hours, but now is 10 - 11 hours, and i was horrified to see, on my recent return to the uk, an 11 hour per day job on a locum website, offering 185 pounds per day, which was what we were getting paid 5 + years ago.

I emailed the relevant locum agency that this was a disgrace and was told that I could try and negotiate a higher rate. Also, one of them told me that I was asking for too much money when I asked for 250 pounds per day, while apparently their 35 pound per day fee, is not excessive, for picking up the phone.

I am currently on my 3rd degree, having decided to take a break from slave labour for a while - which brings on a whole new paradigm - when I started looking for a part time job, most bosses seem to think that if you do not have kids, you must be a lazy wench if you do not want to work 6 - 7 days per week, and 10 - 11 hours per day, and do not regard study as a legitimate use of time. I know many part time mothers who have had similar problems, after working tireless for practices for several years, often beyond the call of duty, only to be told there is categorically no room for part time work after they have had a child, so much for loyalty. Interestingly, this situation seems to be starting to backfire, as there are no so many female vets, many with children, that part time and jobsharing has become very common.

My questions are:

Why does the vet governing bodies and locum agencies not do anything about setting minimum fees, which should go up with experience? And what can we do about this? Train drivers get paid 50k per year and they only need gcses, most of us struggle to get paid this after many years in practice. My friends who have done a 5 week course to be a tennis coach and have no other degrees, get paid 25 pounds per hour. On recent application for a 'charity' vet job, I was told they could only afford to pay 30 pounds less per day than 2 years ago as 'things were tight'. Not sure about the rest of you, but some of us need to make a living and pay for our lives with our jobs, and this is not helping.

Why should we be expected to work on call for free when our bosses are profiting and every other profession gets paid double time or more for working nights or on call? In one of my locum jobs I often had 2 hours sleep during my frequent nights on call, was told 'it was not their policy to pay for on call' - which seems to be only just changing and very reluctantly, and was still expected to work 11 hour days the next day. Most of my on call was spent doing repeat bull dog caesareans with extremely rude and ungrateful breeders - opening yet another can of worms....

Normal workers are supposed to work maximum 6 hours per day before having a minimum 6 hour break. In virtually every job I have had I have been told that 'lunch is optional" and have had to work 10hours plus nonstop without food. Why should the usual rules not apply to us, as they do in most other professions?

[/quote]

You may be working for the wrong practice and using the wrong agency? even the corporates that seem to drive the hardest bargain will pay £200-£220, and if stuck for work I will reduce my daily rate to that if there is no other work is available. Some agencies which employ you then hire you out to the practice pay less I know, I came across a colleague last summer that was paid £180, while the practice was billed £250 by the agency!. Only use an agency that acts as an introductory service, and negotiate rates and terms directly with the practice. you should be getting way more than £185.

I rarely do any on call work, but I sure as hell would not do it for "free", it is often suggested and many practice owners feel it is part of the job and included in the daily rate - it's not. Again, discuss rates and terms before taking the locum. I have on occasions agreed to cover OOH for a minimal retainer, say £10, just to be on call plus a % of any OOH revenue - if I did a 3.00am Bulldog caearean I would expect to be well paid for it.

If you are employed, you are entitled and your employer is obliged to make you take, a minimum of a 20 min break after 6 hours of work. Not sure of the position if you are a self-employed locum? As a vet of 15 years I cannot ever remember not having lunch, or working 10 hours with no food. One has to be flexible, and it may have been late, or may have only be 10-15 mins to grab a sandwich. If a regular occurrence then you have a managmental issue that needs addressing - I make time for a lunch break, and in fact most practices allow for breaks within their schedules. Are you sure there is not a touch of martyrdom involved??

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Tim Cheyne — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 04:22:21 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

If practising abroad you can remove your name from the register and get it re-instated on your return. You don't need to be a member.

[/quote]

That might depend upon the country. In some countries it is mandatory to be MRCVS and in some others it is at least desirable even if not mandatory. Also, a reduced fee is paid to RCVS if practising outside UK.

Tim.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 22 Mar 2012 00:14:02 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Any solutions to the above would be gratefully received.[/quote]

Re-train as a tennis coach?

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:16:24 GMT

My experience is the opposite. As a locum, I think I am well paid. I do a lot of work for local practices and offer them reliability and flexibility.

In return I think I am lucky to be in what is a semi full-time job (my choosing) in a time of high unemployment.

And as far as pay goes, I have never heard of female locums being paid any less than male locums.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Julian Earl — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:04:24 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I am writing this letter anonymously as I know how vindictive and chauvinistic the veterinary profession can be, and would appreciate some feedback on the following issues.

As a female working in New Zealand, I have battled against the paying of females less than males for many years. It seems that this situation is still continuing in nz and the uk and neither vet governing body have done anything to address it. It seems that anyone who tries to stand up for themselves, or create some kind of union, especially females, are branded trouble makers and henceforth are blackballed from jobs in this small and incestuous profession. Associated with this, is the continual disgustingly lowpaid wages we are offered, with no increase for experience, so that new grad locums and 10+ year qualified vets are paid the same rate - a 'day' used to consist of 8 - 9 hours, but now is 10 - 11 hours, and i was horrified to see, on my recent returrn to the uk, an 11 hour per day job on a locum website, offering 185 pounds per day, which was what we were getting paid 5 + years ago.

...one of them told me that I was asking for too much money when I asked for 250 pounds per day, while apparently their 35 pound per day fee, is not excessive, for picking up the phone.

Why does the vet governing bodies and locum agencies not do anything about setting minimum fees, which should go up with experience? And what can we do about this? Train drivers get paid 50k per year and they only need gcses, most of us struggle to get paid this after many years in practice... I was told they could only afford to pay 30 pounds less per day than 2 years ago as 'things were tight'. Not sure about the rest of you, but some of us need to make a living and pay for our lives with our jobs, and this is not helping.

...but it would be nice to be able to make a decent living - I am not sure if bosses have noticed but the price of living has rocketed in the last 5 years, so why should we still be paid the same as 2006, and get paid for the hours we actually work, not the imaginary ones advertised that we are supposed to work.

[/quote]

I don't think that the RCVS have any role in determining salaries for vets, it's not their job to interfere with the business aspect of private practices. BVA maybe?

As for "disgustingly low wages": firstly, everybody thinks they are underpaid, and secondly, practice owners will, by and large, pay what they can afford in a competitive market. It is competitive between practiices of course, and also between applicants for jobs. Supply and demand in other words. I find it hard to believe that you have encountered have not increased salaries with experience - surely people would just leave for a better job?

Locum fees seemed to have a spell of increasing dramatically about five years ago or so, almost pricing themselves out of the market. Agency fees didn't help either. Whether £185 per day is adequate depends on experience, abilities, rota and yep, supply and demand again. Train drivers and tennis coaches are completely irrelevant of course, as is the cost of living in fact. We can adjust fees according to inflation and so on but again practices can only pay from the pot that they have, not from some imaginary pot of gold under the sink. I would happily double the pay of all my staff; unfortunately they would only benefit from this for a few months or so before we went bust.

Re. being on call, you are being paid for it in your agreed salary. So you could argue that you are being paid when not being called out as well as when you are. Of course, some practices pay extra for a call-out, but that will be in the contract presumably. And whilst it would be excellent not to have to do a full day after a night on call, who fills your spot if you're not there? Another vet could be employed but then the pie is only so big and it would be reflected in your, and others', salary. It's not ideal but welcome to veterinary rotas.

Lunch breaks are good. Although legally you are only entitled to twenty minutes (I think) if you have worked for six hours. But the usual rules cannot apply to us, just as they cannot to certain other workers - policemen, firemen, surgeons, etc. We cannot stop working because our time is up so flexibility is a necessity. If you are missing lunches everyday, day in, day out, then the time management needs addressing, and/or the rota.

No-one said it was easy, but you do have options.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Colin Thomson — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 22:40:48 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[/quote]

Colin

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

plantagenet — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 22:35:30 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]offering 185 pounds per day[/quote]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I emailed the relevant locum agency that this was a disgrace[/quote]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Why does the vet governing bodies and locum agencies not do anything about setting minimum fees[/quote]

As an employer, I would love to get £185 per day, especially without all the stress, hassle and financial investment, and way more that 11 h a day.

The money is not there, there are not enough clients and they don't have enough money to permit most vets to get anywhere near 50K

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I am not sure if bosses have noticed but the price of living has rocketed in the last 5 years, so why should we still be paid the same as 2006[/quote]

Where do I start........

It would indeed be nice to make a decent living - I think I might return to being a locum.

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Utlendigur — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 22:18:07 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]SPVS salary survey figures show a rise with inflation, year on year. They have also told me that they could split salaries between men and women but the difference was not statistically significant.[/quote]

Re: wages v experience, its a girls life

Anthony Todd — Wed, 21 Mar 2012 21:45:35 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Any solutions to the above would be gratefully received.[/quote]

Very few locums, and we have the financial analysis, generate more than 50% of the fees generated by the usual vet.

Variations in fees generated between vets can be as much as 50%.

I'd love to pay locums a share of what they earn, ie actually do during the working day; after hours, I agree, is different.