Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:59:46 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Funny, but I've never heard of a vet on an RCVS disciplinary for this kind of thing and it happens very commonly out in the real world. Imagine the outcry if a vet were struck off for it - RCVS are in enough crap as it is at the moment having shown negligible competence in installing some computers. Why speak to some office drone about it, senior or otherwise? It's personal ethics here, and I wouldn't trust an RCVS office worker to make me a cup of tea never mind unpick the various ethical strands to this.

[/quote]

That's worth repeating.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

David Mills — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:13:21 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

So as a vet my only course to protect animal welfare is to report them all anonymously to the RSPCA!

I only want to make sure this boxer is not in pain i.e. its welfare needs are being seen to. It would be a relief to know that the dog had been seen at another veterinary practice. But in reality, the only way I can see of achieving this is to get the RSPCA to investigate.

[/quote]

Essentially, in this case, yes. You can choose to do it anonymously or not, the RSPCA will treat it as anonymous anyway wrt the client - and if you do it anonymously then they won't be able to give you feedback, which doesn't achieve your aim.

RSPCA are duty bound to investigate any report, so you rest assured it will be done. In this respect, I would far rather deal with them than the police.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

An On MRCVS — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:45:45 GMT

Please tell me if I am being niave but this is my summary of GP vets role in animal welfare:

Legally the police should investigate/prosecute cases of animal welfare but they couldn't give a sh*t; the RSPCA are more than keen to send an inspector round on anyone's say so and even to prosecute; but as a veterinarian I have to ask the RCVS who believe that client confidentiality is far more important than protecting animal welfare. So as a vet my only course to protect animal welfare is to report them all anonymously to the RSPCA!

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

james herriot lied — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:29:21 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]

A previous case in the news, reported by a veterinary practice - no mention of disciplinary action or client confidentiality there?

[/quote]

Unfortunately, as already noted in a different thread, this owner/breeder is actually pencilled in as a judge for Crufts 2013 . But yes, it was reported by a vet, without immediately apparent adverse consequences.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Mark Rowland — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:27:20 GMT

Plus "Boxerbitch" on the boxer forum may have suggested alternative treatments (e.g. asprin and optrex). That is still diligence on the part of the owner.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:23:25 GMT

Back to the original post..........

Follow your conscience, that's what you have one for.

But first just consider how the client might see this (don't jump down my throat, anybody, it's not how I see it):

They brought the dog to you when they noticed it had a bad eye. You did an operation which was supposed to make it better, for which they paid quite a lot. You wanted to see it again at frequent intervals, for which they feared you were going to charge them. The eye did not get better, it got a lot worse. So you said you wanted to do another operation, for which they would have to pay quite a lot more. They decided not to proceed with you. Since then you have tried to persuade them by making them feel guilty, with offers of special payment plans (still costing the same money in the end). They decided still not to proceed with you and since then you have harassed them with frequent phone calls. They are in difficulties and are not answering the phone to anyone at present.They are going to get the eye fixed but they just want no more to do with you. But you are going to "report" them.

Sorry, but these things can be more complicated than you might believe.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:24:57 GMT

A previous case in the news, reported by a veterinary practice - no mention of disciplinary action or client confidentiality there?

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2009/Apr2009/News170409/mastiffbreeders.htm

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

David Mills — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:15:16 GMT

On another note, imagine a world without the RSPCA...what would we do then?

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

David Mills — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:14:32 GMT

Simply speak to the RSPCA. There is a certain peer/public pressure associated with having an RSPCA van parked outside someone's door; the inspectors will get back to you, having extracted the information about the dog's ongoing treatment (massive punt but I would assume it's been elsewhere and they didn't want to tell you) far better than you or the PM are able to. Everyone's a winner.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:35:46 GMT

As the patient's welfare is the primary concern, and you have done all you can to follow the case up, it should be reported to the RSPCA. This can be done "anonymously" and you could do it as a member of the public and not as a veterinary surgeon.

As Evelyn says, there may well be complicating factors and circumstances you are not aware of, but it still remains the responsibility of the owners to seek treatment for their animal.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:13:28 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I would like the Gto PC to only have 2 sentences

1) I will put animalwelfare before all other considerations

2) I will obey the law-this more than adequately deals with all obligations to owners

[/quote]

A little simplistic, don't you think?

This would outlaw vivisection - it certainly isn't in the animal's best interests!

Sometimes animal welfare HAS to be weighed against other considerations.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:31:30 GMT

Actually 99% of cases under the AWA are private prosecutions,funded by the RSPCA The police don't want to know-although it is their statutory duty to investigate all crime-including crime against animals

Wynne

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Richard Carter — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:25:48 GMT

The RCVS has some strange ideas about data protection - if the law is being broken and you feel that a court case would confirm this then report it, directly to the police if need be as illegal activity by teh owner under the animal welfare act. Be prepared to stand up in court.

While the RSPCA will take on welfare cases, it has no extra legal authority to investigate anymore than anyone else in the street (including the vet seeing the case). The prosecution is done by the police and courts, not RSPCA.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 09:54:27 GMT

This is a subject on which I have fallen out with RCVS in the past. Our oath states "my constant endevour will be to ensure the welfare of animals committed to my care"-although the late (and non-lamented ) Registrar wanted "oath" tobe downgraded todeclaration-the rest of the Gto PC is more concerned with pleasing owners

I would like the Gto PC to only have 2 sentences

1) I will put animalwelfare before all other considerations

2) I will obey the law-this more than adequately deals with all obligations to owners

Wynne

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:42:18 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]As a vet I swore "that my constant endeavour will be to ensure the welfare of the animals committed to my care.” [/quote]

Did you swear that to the RCVS, or the practice manager?

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:39:36 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]Call the RCVS yourself and ask to speak to a senior case manager in the Prof Conduct department.[/quote]

Glad candidates for election replied, and there must be someone from the RCVS who can justify their apparent action and advice?

Where's their proposed "communications officer, or department when it's obviously needed?

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Richard Stephenson — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 00:02:40 GMT

Call the RCVS yourself and ask to speak to a senior case manager in the Prof Conduct department.

I am assuming that your manager may be a lay person and this is a issue which you as a Vet need to explain directly to the Prof Conduct department.

yours,

Richard Stephenson.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

James Laidlaw — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:37:18 GMT

I hope you have a better day tomorrow!

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Lorna McHardy — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:18:52 GMT

How about reporting the RCVS to the RSPCA... they seem to be the ones preventing you from doing something about an animal's lack of welfare.

I'd make very sure there hasn't been a miscommunication anywhere along the line first, though.

I'm finding it difficult to believe that this wonderful regulator, you know, the ones that require an oath to protect the welfare of the animals in our care or they won't allow us to pay them large sums of money to be allowed to earn a living protecting the welfare of animals under our care, so they can spend it in dubious ways (oops. I think I might have just let slip a general idea of my opinion of the RCVS there)... anyway, I do genuinely find it difficult to believe that under the circumstances you describe, they would trumpet confidentiality over welfare. I mean, think how stupid, and inconsistent, and incompetent, and hypocritical they'd look! This has to be a miscommunication, it really does.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Utlendigur — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:15:28 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I await the red stars, but this is not for us to police.[/quote]

But why should the vet dealing with the case, and as the OP pointed out, the person charged with ensuring the animal's welfare, be the only person who is forbidden to report it? I think that's what makes the situation so stupid.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:59:30 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Why on earth would it damage the practice?

[/quote]

If we were investigated for breach of client confidentiality?

[/quote]

Well, anonymous reporting would solve that. Anyway, if you were "investigated", all the facts would come out which on balance would reflect very well upon the practice.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]We haven't been asked by another practice for the dogs notes and we have a good relationship with neighbouring practices (more than good enough for them to ask for histories anyway).[/quote]

Yes, but they may have taken the dog to another practice without revealing that it's been to you.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I think I'll write to prof con tomorrow for clarification on this case as much for future reference as much as this individual case.[/quote]

Well, that might be wise and could help you make up your mind. That's better than your VN employer doing it.

( PS. You don't know anyone in the same street as these owners, do you? Then you could get them to report to the RSPCA. )

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

An On MRCVS — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:50:39 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Why on earth would it damage the practice?

[/quote]

If we were investigated for breach of client confidentiality?

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

An On MRCVS — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:49:18 GMT

We haven't been asked by another practice for the dogs notes and we have a good relationship with neighbouring practices (more than good enough for them to ask for histories anyway).

I think I'll write to prof con tomorrow for clarification on this case as much for future reference as much as this individual case.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:48:13 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]She is a veterinary nurse - she definitely knows how serious and painful this condition is. She is as frustrated about it as I am but is also scared of damaging the practice as she part owns it.[/quote]

Ah. You posted this while I was composing.

Why on earth would it damage the practice?

My advice remains unchanged.

Re: Animal welfare and problems with RCVS - surprise, surprise!!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:43:22 GMT

Just bear in mind that the owners may have all sorts of reasons that you don't know about. People are complicated and sometimes their lives are complicated. Maybe they have taken the dog to another practice. Maybe they have had it euthanased. Maybe your practice is really quite expensive for your area. Maybe (sorry, but you have to consider it) they don't trust you any more.

Anyway, if you are quite sure after thinking hard that you want to report this case to the RSPCA:

Option 1: do it anonymously. Then nobody will know it was you, will they? They might suspect but they won't know.

Option 2: Just do it. Your practice manager (heavens preserve us from jumped-up "practice managers") has no right to over-rule your professional ethics. The RCVS has no right to forbid you to report it; only to advise you not to. In any case, you could only get into trouble with RCVS if someone makes a complaint - and who is likely to do that?