Vet checks at Crufts

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Rob Davis — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:35:21 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

The KC must have really old pictures of champion bulldogs and other "exaggerated" current breeds.

Let's see some and we can judge the changes for the better or worse....

[/quote]

The zoological museum in Tring has a fascinating collection of taxidermy (collected if I recall correctly by one of the Rothschilds in the late 19th century). It includes several dogs of various breeds. The boxers and dachshunds stand out in my memory as being strikingly different...

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:21:30 GMT

My GSD is a long-haired version of the 1950's type. Interesting that the two pictures are labelled the evolution of the GSD.

How much evolution happens in 50 years? Not much in the natural world. A group of breeders and judges have decided this is a good change and the breed has paid the price!

Is being afraid of the dark genetic? If so my GSD is a dud and I want a refund!

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 19:25:23 GMT

[quote user="Steve Dean"] and not all judges are highly successful.[/quote]

An interesting little comment. Do you mean that not all judges are very good at judging differences between one dog and another?

Or do you mean that not all judges are very good at rewarding the dogs that the breeders expect to be rewarded, so that they don't get their pictures posing with exhibitors in the doggy press very much, don't get asked to judge so often and never ever get to judge at Cruft's?

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:04:29 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

then look at the 1965 Crufts champion in the UK

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thekennelclub/2651739013/

[/quote]

Followed immediately by a big smiley comment to the effect that that is what they should look like.

[/quote]

Judges give first prizes and championships to walking (well, just about walking) cripples like that. The ruined wreck of what was once a fine breed. Since the Kennel Club (private club) have, not a monopoly quite, shall we say a stranglehold on dog showing and judging, they should admit their complicity.

This illustrates nicely why some of us in the veterinary profession have feelings varying from disillusion to contempt, for the whole showing-judging-breeding-Kennel Club business.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 09:17:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[/quote]

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 09:16:01 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

then look at the 1965 Crufts champion in the UK

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thekennelclub/2651739013/

[/quote]

Followed immediately by a big smiley comment to the effect that that is what they should look like.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 09:13:07 GMT

[quote user="Steve Dean"]

I think we need to drop this comparison to the wolf. The domestic dog is nothing like a wolf be it mongrel or pure-bred it adds little to the debate.

[/quote]

Depends on the dog.... the last 'Northern Inuit' I saw was the closest thing to a wolf on a lead I ever hope to see. Although admittedly the word 'domestic' seems inappropriate in that particular context. This animal had yellow eyes and the kind of watchful, not-entirely-relaxed quietness that's almost eerie, and certainly isn't what you'd expect from a domestic animal.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Anthony Todd — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 00:47:10 GMT

This is not a wolf, would it be a champion?

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Anthony Todd — Mon, 09 Apr 2012 00:27:13 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I reckon most will say, provided someone digs up some photos, "Yeah, it does."[/quote]

Good ol' Google!

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/german-shepherd/german-shepherd.aspx

Just scroll down and compare 1952 to 2005.

I know they may not be UK but it gives the idea......

And, by pure coincidence, read the sentence above the 1952 picture......

then look at the 1965 Crufts champion in the UK

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thekennelclub/2651739013/

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Anthony Todd — Sun, 08 Apr 2012 23:00:59 GMT

[quote user="Steve Dean"]I think we need to drop this comparison to the wolf. The domestic dog is noting like a wolf be it mongrel or pure-bred it adds little to the debate.[/quote]

Oh, come on. Let's see some old photos. All I implied was that it looked nothing like the alsation/german shepherd of today, but more like a wolf.

I certainly realised, as did probably everyone other reader, that it was not genetically related, although there will be a reply connecting the two as distant relatives, I'm sure.

I reckon most will say, provided someone digs up some photos, "Yeah, it does."

And connecting my simple observation to canine pathology is neat chicanery.

A classic muddying and diverting of the waters I would suggest.

[ I'm beginning to see how the Cascade was developed]

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:33:39 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Steve Dean"] If a feature or quality is desirable it should only be present in the right measure.[/quote]

Somewhere I've got a picture of the German Grand champion alsation from 1924; nothing like the alsations of today, more like a wolf.

The KC must have really old pictures of champion bulldogs and other "exaggerated" current breeds.

Let's see some and we can judge the changes for the better or worse....

[/quote]

OK first an update on breed names. Alsatian was never popular with the breed. It was used as it was felt German Shepherd would be controversial after the war. The term Alsatian has now been dropped they are simply GSDs.

Old pictures are always interesting and often show things have got better or worse. For the GSD two types have exosted for some time with and the Champion described sounds like an English type. However GSDs have a history of hind limb ataxia first with CDRM and HD and now the roached back is suspect. Do not misunderstand me I am not defending the breeds worst excesses but one problem we have is estbalsihing a clear link between conformation and the pathology.

I think we need to drop this comparison to the wolf. The domestic dog is noting like a wolf be it mongrel or pure-bred it adds little to the debate.

I will see what I can do with the help of the librarian at the KC on pictures of some of the breeds however

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Anthony Todd — Sun, 08 Apr 2012 02:34:09 GMT

[quote user="Steve Dean"] If a feature or quality is desirable it should only be present in the right measure.[/quote]

Somewhere I've got a picture of the German Grand champion alsation from 1924; nothing like the alsations of today, more like a wolf.

The KC must have really old pictures of champion bulldogs and other "exaggerated" current breeds.

Let's see some and we can judge the changes for the better or worse....

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:49:58 GMT

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]I would suggest in the first instance that a panel of vets should be asked to go through breed standards and alter what is acceptable and required of a show dog for each breed. Only then is there something enforceable that vets and judges can use as support in cases where an individual dog is judged as unsuitable for showing[/quote]

It is such a good idea that it has already been done. The KC formed a group of vets and dog breeders to review the breed standards and removed all terminiology that encouraged exaggeration. All the breed standards are on-line at the KC website. The KC continues to monitor breed standards and make changes where it is considered the wording encourages exaggerated conformation. In addition each standard starts by stating:

A Breed Standard is the guideline which describes the ideal characteristics, temperament and appearance of a breed and ensures that the breed is fit for function. Absolute soundness is essential. Breeders and judges should at all times be careful to avoid obvious conditions or exaggerations which would be detrimental in any way to the health, welfare or soundness of this breed. From time to time certain conditions or exaggerations may be considered to have the potential to affect dogs in some breeds adversely, and judges and breeders are requested to refer to the Breed Watch section of the Kennel Club website here http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breeds/watch for details of any such current issues. If a feature or quality is desirable it should only be present in the right measure. However if a dog possesses a feature, characteristic or colour described as undesirable or highly undesirable it is strongly recommended that it should not be rewarded in the show ring.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:43:08 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]So it was a blemish on the cornea, which to be fair is unlikely to confer a genetic predisposition to inherited welfare concerning problems which excluded the Bulldog, rather than the obscene conformational deformities that are the breed norm. Don't get me wrong I would exclude the Bulldog but on the basis of it being a Bulldog. If they needed me to list the reasons they would have to wait until I had more time.[/quote]

Now Mark that is a controversial comment. Interestingly now the KC has limited the number of caesars to two per bitch many bulldogs are being allowed to ry and whelp and surprise surprise they can do it without veterinary interference. Is it not better to breed dogs that can breathe and breed rather than discount a breed because you do not like the way it looks? Your view sounds a little like the dangerous dogs act - deed not breed is surely the right way to go.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:36:55 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] Anyone know what they were checked for? Is there a list or a protocol somewhere?[/quote]

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4176

This address will take you to a FAQ page on the KC website. Look for pdf file detailing the veterinary checks. Please note post Crufts these are being redrafted to make some of the guidance clearer.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:19:13 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]From what I understand, the judge is not a vet, merely a distinguished breeder/show winner who knows what's "beautiful" in a dog. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - just from the comments I've seen on other blogs, the judges have been stated as prior winning breeders. [/quote]

A few vets are judges. I award Challenge Certificates in Border Terriers and there areother vets in various other breeds. Most judges started as dog exhibitors then bred their own dogs and worked their way up the ladder to becoming a judge. Judges are trained in basic anatomy and movement the specific characteristics of their breed (the breed standard) and the rules and regulations governing the show ring.

Not all breeders are judges and not all judges are highly successful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but the basis beauty is the conformational structure of the dog. We all have our preferences where breeds are concerned but underlying all of this is the need for a dog to be able to eat, breathe, move and reproduce without difficulty.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:11:28 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Ah but the clumber failed because it had bilateral ectropion. Not really an "on the day condition"[/quote]

No dog at Crufts failed the check directly because of ectropion or entropion. It was the associated clincial signs (inflammation; epiphora or signs of discomfort) that led to the Best of Breed Award being withheld.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:07:56 GMT

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]If changes are to be successful then breeders will have to be brought along with the changes as willingly as possible.[/quote]

I think Roger is right about bringing the breeders along with us. The feelings in the show world are mixed. The more vocal have commented in the press and on-line but there has been much verbal and email support for the intiative from those not willing to expose themselves to verbal attack. Even those who have criticised the veterinary checks have stated they are keen to support better health and to be fair the High Profile Breeds have done much already to improve ther areas of health. The bulldog for example in the show ring has increasing numbers that are fit and active.

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]It is also all very well to focus on obvious and visual physical problems, however I wonder how much internal hip and elbow scores etc should be considered in the show ring too or should soundness be the only criteria and if sound is that using NSAIDS and what medications should be taken into consideration if any?[/quote]

The health schemes are the right way to tackle hip and elbow dysplasias with lameness being the criteria in the show ring that would lead to a dog being excluded from the ring. We have to keep health as objective as possible in the show ring. You might like to look at the Kennel club website at Mate Select and the health test finder where hip and elbow scores and eye test results for example can be found by breedeers looking for a suitable stud dog.

Medication is an interesting one but this would require veterinary surgeons to divulge client information - are we ready for that yet?

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:03:17 GMT

Steve, welcome to the forum. One thing you might find helpful is to press the 'quote this post' button when replying to a post - helps make it clear who you are replying to. If you are replying to a long post, and just want to quote a bit of it, first select the text you want to quote, then press the button. Hope that makes sense. Arlo.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:57:03 GMT

It is not possible to introduce veterinary checks at small local shows as there is generally no veterinary surgeon present. In addition the winners from the Championship Shows provide the bulk of the entry at Crufts and if judges do their work correctly then the dogs at Crufts should be filtered for health as well as conformation. I would argue the outcomes of the vet checks showed that judges did in fact do their job well.

These veterianry checks have been in place for some years but the dogs needed to be referred to the vet by an observer at the ringside. The change at Crufts this year was the mandatory check for the High Profile Breeds (Dogue de Bordeaux; Pekingese; Bloodhound; Bulldog; Basset Hound; Chow Chow; Clumber Spaniel; French Bulldog; St. Bernard; Pug; Mastiff; German Shepherd; Shar Pei; Neapolitan Mastiff; Chinese Crested).

I can understand why a young vet finds some dog breeders difficult for they know quite a lot about dogs and in some areas more than the veterinary surgeon and they can come across as described. However they are not fools and do not like being treated as such and a change of attitude from our normal god-like position would help relationships a great deal.

The vet check was signalled to the breeds more than 12 months in advance and discussed at meetings with show veterinary surgeons, breed representatives and judges. So none of this came out of the blue. I agree that now these vet checks are established they will bring about a sea change in attitude and that should include the veterinary profession too. As a point of interest at the UL Toy Dog Championship sow this last weekend two pekes passed aveteirnay check and so did the Chinese Crested. The pugs declined to compete for Best of Breed. The vet was one of those who officiated at Crufts.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Steve Dean — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:38:03 GMT

I have finally found this set of comments and so rather than one long comment I will send comments to individual posts where I hope I can add something to the debate. I am Steve Dean, the first veterinary surgeon to be Chairman of the Kennel Club. I am therefore quite close to this issue.

It might be important to point out that it is not necessarily the breeder that is involved here but the owner and exhibitor of the dog. They spend a lot of time and effort to get to Crufts and feel rightly upset when they fail the veterinary check. There are already calls for an ability to get their dogs checked prior to a show and where conditions are obvious then I would suggest this is reasonable. To suggest 'these people are relentless' suggests an established view about dog breeders which I personally do not share. They generally try very hard to breed good dogs and are very responsive to recommendations on health that make sense especially where the advice is based on good evidence.

Any owner is entitled to understand why a veterinary surgeon has failed their dog on health grounds. Of course they will seek to play one vet off against another but if as a profession we allow this to happen then we are not working in the best interests of the dogs. If a decision is such that it can cause a genuine difference of opinion then this needs resolving as the dog owner should not expect a lottery type decision from the profession.

Having said all that the check is done on the day, the veterinary surgeon's decision is final and the dog does not go forward to the group or best in show competition. This will take place at every General or Group Championship Show in the UK during 2012. The good news is that nine of the fifteen high profile breeds passed their health checks and of the six that failed the common factor was poor adnexal conformation leading to clinical signs. This tends to suggest the health of the best of breed winners was generally of a good standard.

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Roger Meacock — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 21:22:49 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]I agree with most of what you say apart from that Crufts is not the right place to introduce new rules.[/quote]

I think we'll have to agree to differ on that one! Those who qualified for Crufts were judged according to existing KC and Breed Standards, so to change the rules at Crufts has not been popular and I think even breeders who support a more healthy type of showing standards have sympathy for those who feel aggrieved by the goalposts changing in such a public manner that paints breeders as cruel and uncaring etc. It tends to tar all breeders with the same brush in the eyes of the public which hasn't endeared the veterinary profession to those we are trying to influence. If changes are to be successful then breeders will have to be brought along with the changes as willingly as possible. Changes also have to be sensible and have substance to health and welfare improvements eg telling Bearded Collie showers/breeders that the coat shouldn't be excessively long is not in same health league as telling brachycephalic breeders to lengthen the muzzle to enable proper breathing!

It is also all very well to focus on obvious and visual physical problems, however I wonder how much internal hip and elbow scores etc should be considered in the show ring too or should soundness be the only criteria and if sound is that using NSAIDS and what medications should be taken into consideration if any?

Roger

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 21:07:26 GMT

[quote user="Lucy K"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Well, same as a show bulldog - how long would they last in a ring with a bulldog?

[/quote]

... or a bull for that matter!

[/quote]

Don't make me throw a perplexed aardvark at you! :p

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Lucy K — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 20:57:48 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Well, same as a show bulldog - how long would they last in a ring with a bulldog?

[/quote]

... or a bull for that matter!

Re: Vet checks at Crufts

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:07:01 GMT

Well, same as a show bulldog - how long would they last in a ring with a bulldog?