Grumble

Re: Grumble

Julian Earl — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:03:17 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Paracetamol is much safer and more useful in dogs than it's often given credit for. Perhaps people remember the severe toxicity in cats and assume the same must apply to dogs?[/quote]

I quite often use it alongside conventional NSAIDS (despite what it says in the data sheet). It's common practice in humans.

[/quote]

Not only that, it is used alongside NSAIDS such as naproxen, Salazopyrin (containing salicylate), and also steroids, all at the same time.

Re: Grumble

John Rimmer — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:43:35 GMT

I think if it were to be referenced, it would be more than a little cumbersome - probably three times the size! Could always contact the author if particularly concerned, but yeah, suppose I would trust the licence in this instance. Don't tend to use it though. It is indeed used alongside NSAIDs in people a lot - especially alongside Ibuprofen. They even use it alongside opioids/opiates after major surgery. Think mainly due to the distinct lack of side effects in man. It's also probably used just as much for pyrexia as analgesia in man.

Re: Grumble

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 23:33:14 GMT

I quite often use it alongside conventional NSAIDS (despite what it says in the data sheet). It's common practice in humans.

Re: Grumble

Rob Loxley — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 23:28:07 GMT

Does the BSAVA publish any references for the Formulary anywhere?

Re: Grumble

Niall Taylor — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:34:47 GMT

[quote user="John Rimmer"]BSAVA formulary gives dose of 10mg/kg and advises very narrow safety margin :-/[/quote]

I know. The dose rate isn't referenced though; I can only assume they're being (unnecessarily) cautious for some reason. I prefer to believe the people who have the veterinary license and have presumably had to do the research.

Ettinger's Textbook of Veterinary Medicine edn. 6 p. 509 gives a dose of 15-28mg per kg & Plumlee's Clinical Veterinary Toxicology 2004 edn, p. 284 reports "Doses of acitominophen greater than 100mg/kg induced toxicosis in dogs".

A client of mine once got very aerated after I'd prescribed paracetamol for her Rottie when she read in Wikipedia that it was extremely toxic in dogs and cats and should never be used in those species. I had to re-write the relevant section of wikipedia to make her happy!

Paracetamol is much safer and more useful in dogs than it's often given credit for. Perhaps people remember the severe toxicity in cats and assume the same must apply to dogs?

Niall

Re: Grumble

Dagmar Steele — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:02:13 GMT

Ypozane might be worth a try.... Rather than leaving it untreated! Love this forum, wouldn't have thought of it myself.

Re: Grumble

John Rimmer — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:55:11 GMT

In one that refused surgery and Suprelorin I gave Ypozane and that worked.

Re: Grumble

John Rimmer — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:52:32 GMT

I have had show dog owners worry about that and therefore prevent me from doing it, but I've also had those who have actually showed dogs with shrunken testes who have said that it wasn't a problem once explained to the judge - i.e. the only ones with any experience have not had a problem.

Re: Grumble

Dagmar Steele — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:28:21 GMT

[quote user="John Rimmer"]

If anal adenoma and they don't want surgery, could give Suprelorin.

[/quote]

if only the testicles wouldn't shrink... no way if they want to show that dog, ask them, they will not have any of it!

Re: Grumble

John Rimmer — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:16:59 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Me: this lump on your dog's anal sphincter could well be cancerous. We ought to take it off. There's a possibility also that it's something where neutering could help a lot.

Owner: But I show him, I don't want him cut.

Me: Oh-kaaayyy. Well, we should certainly take this lump off and see what it is. How's tomorrow for you?

Owner: Oh, I don't want to do it now. Crufts is coming up

Me: Erm, Crufts is this week

Owner: No it isn't, I've just got my stuff through. It's next month

Me: Right. Best just to check that. How about you pop in next week for a chat about it

Owner: I don't want the lump taken off, it might cause a scar

Me: Well, surely the judges will see the lump in any case, and not allow him in the ring

Owner: Oh no, they never look under there.

[/quote]

If anal adenoma and they don't want surgery, could give Suprelorin.

Re: Grumble

John Rimmer — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:16:00 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="John Rimmer"]Dose of paracetamol in dogs 10mg/kg so 2 500mg tabs could be pretty catastrophic or the biggest of dogs :-/[/quote]

The datasheet of pardale-V gives the dose as 33.3mg/kg tid.

For a 50kg dog 2 X 500mg tabs works out as 20mg/kg. Even if given three times daily this is still a safe dose.

Niall

[/quote]

BSAVA formulary gives dose of 10mg/kg and advises very narrow safety margin :-/

Re: Grumble

Niall Taylor — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:29:58 GMT

[quote user="John Rimmer"]Dose of paracetamol in dogs 10mg/kg so 2 500mg tabs could be pretty catastrophic or the biggest of dogs :-/[/quote]

The datasheet of pardale-V gives the dose as 33.3mg/kg tid.

For a 50kg dog 2 X 500mg tabs works out as 20mg/kg. Even if given three times daily this is still a safe dose.

Niall

Re: Grumble

Laurence Webb — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 20:19:00 GMT

Sounds a bit like the breeder I had who wanted my to descale the incisors and canines of the dog, because the tartar was spoiling it's chances in the show ring but didn't want me to treat the severe peridontitis in the premolars and molars (ie remove the teeth).

The logic was that removing the caudal teeth would spoil its scores in the ring when examined, but only the front teeth needed treating as those were the only ones that were examined by judges.

We reached a compromise. I agreed to treat only the teeth that needed treating (all of them) if he agreed to not be so stupid.

Re: Grumble

james herriot lied — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 20:06:21 GMT

Me: this lump on your dog's anal sphincter could well be cancerous. We ought to take it off. There's a possibility also that it's something where neutering could help a lot.

Owner: But I show him, I don't want him cut.

Me: Oh-kaaayyy. Well, we should certainly take this lump off and see what it is. How's tomorrow for you?

Owner: Oh, I don't want to do it now. Crufts is coming up

Me: Erm, Crufts is this week

Owner: No it isn't, I've just got my stuff through. It's next month

Me: Right. Best just to check that. How about you pop in next week for a chat about it

Owner: I don't want the lump taken off, it might cause a scar

Me: Well, surely the judges will see the lump in any case, and not allow him in the ring

Owner: Oh no, they never look under there.

Re: Grumble

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:49:37 GMT

Yes I know and I did tell her definately not! She was obviously determined not to have anything from us. Despite just having told me the dog was insured so would we be able to claim for it's dry eye.

Re: Grumble

John Rimmer — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:45:40 GMT

Dose of paracetamol in dogs 10mg/kg so 2 500mg tabs could be pretty catastrophic or the biggest of dogs :-/

Re: Grumble

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:35:56 GMT

Owner: He's been getting a bit stiff for a while. I've been giving him Ibuprofen and paracetamol

Me: DO NOT GIVE HIM ibuprofen and I would not choose paracetamol as best treatment for arthritis etc etc

Owner: Can I give him Disprin?

Me: no don't use that either - carry on to discuss have lots of SAFE drugs to help arthritis.

Owner (on the way out of the door) : So can I give him 2 paracetamol then He's a big dog?

AAARGGH!

Re: Grumble

Lucy K — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 12:46:28 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Sometimes I really think that people like this should sign a paper saying "My veteriary surgeon has given me a veterinary opinion that I do not wish to agree with. I hereby sign that the veterinary surgeon is not legally responsible for the consequences of ignoring his advice."

[/quote]

Great idea.

Re: Grumble

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 08:37:00 GMT