Sick pay

Re: Sick pay

plantagenet — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 08:16:16 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]As a practice owner I find taxation , especially VAT is my biggest headache-the owners only care what they have to pay-they don't care that 20% is stolen by the government Also when income tax and both employers and employees NI are taken into consideration,the true cost of employing someone is vastly in excess of their take home[/quote]

Absolutely true and I also object to being an unpaid tax collector - I have to employ someone to help me with the VAT because I just don't have the time to be a full time vet and do all the paperwork - consequently it costs ME money to pass on this money to the Exchequer . PAYE and NI I manage myself although only in the small hours - it doesn't cost me anything because I don't pay myself to do it. I would appreciate some recognition of my service to the government at least - not just a telling off it I get it wrong.

If clients raise their eyebrows at big bills, I do point out to them that 20% VAT is a big component and that aint my fault.

Re: Sick pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 09:31:16 GMT

As a practice owner I find taxation , especially VAT is my biggest headache-the owners only care what they have to pay-they don't care that 20% is stolen by the government Also when income tax and both employers and employees NI are taken into consideration,the true cost of employing someone is vastly in excess of their take home pay If tax could be halved, then there's an awful lot I'd put up with to achieve that

Wynne

Re: Sick pay

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 20:19:16 GMT

From my limited experience of one visit, I would have said that America is a wonderful place to be a visitor in, but I wouldn't work there, ever. The way I observed workers being treated, the fact that you only get two weeks holiday... nononononono. I'll stick with Scotland, no matter how much I might find to grumble about when I'm in the mood.

And that's before I listen to people like Senator Santorum.

Re: Sick pay

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 20:19:14 GMT

And that's before I listen to people like Senator Santorum.

Re: Sick pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:42:21 GMT

No but America sounds attractive-they were grumbling about the "brain drain " when I was in school-the incentives for well-qualified young people to leave are even greater now

Wynne

Re: Sick pay

Julian Earl — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:58:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Oh for a low tax minimum bureaucracy society If I was 30 years younger I'd be on the 1st plane out of Heathrow

Wynne

[/quote]

Huh, you want to go to Kuala Lumpur?

Yep, that's right, I've just checked.

Re: Sick pay

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:10:22 GMT

[quote user="Neal Palk"]You're right that no-one can be stopped from leaving - nor in many cases would an employer wish to stop them - but you can at least recover some of the investment from someone who woulde have left anyway.[/quote]

Yep, that's why we do it.

As a medium sized practice with a focus on personal and professional development of all our staff, we pay out/invest a significant sum in training and development - more than £25k annually. While we are happy to do this, we like to see the benefit ourselves and not just act as a philanthropic training centre for the benefit of other businesses. Few people abuse the system but it causes huge annoyance when the odd one does.

Re: Sick pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:41:56 GMT

Oh for a low tax minimum bureaucracy society If I was 30 years younger I'd be on the 1st plane out of Heathrow

Wynne

Re: Sick pay

Clive Ansell — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:35:23 GMT

My brother lives and works in the US, and they seem to have a different system altogether. He gets no SSP or state help if he is off sick, it is up to him to provide his own insurance or savings etc, with no taxpayer to pick up the tab. What he does get is 10 annual "occasional days", these are paid days off in addition to normal annual holiday (only 2 weeks) which can be taken at short notice for sickness, funerals, doctors appointments, to extend a weekend etc. Any days not taken are rolled over and doubled to the next year, so over several years it can build up. Seems a sensible approach to me.

I suppose the counter argument is; we pay almost double in taxes to what he does, so if we are sick, time off with SSP is seen by some as a right and is just a case of payback time?

Re: Sick pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:25:01 GMT

And the last thing you want is a resentful employee-the damage they will dowillfar exceed the course fees

Just another disadvantage of being boss I'm afraid

Wynne

Re: Sick pay

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:15:21 GMT

None of the nurses I have known would have enough funds to pay for their own training - either at the time or afterwards. Paying and going wouldn't be an option - they would have to work out their contract, resentfully!

Re: Sick pay

Neal Palk — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:46:35 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Obviously not...... but you can contract them to pay back the training costs if they leave within a specified time. If they choose to act the a*se rather during that period, then that is a performance management/disciplinary issue.[/quote]

How on earth do you quantify how much training has cost though???

And I know that if they aren't doing their job, or being insubordinate, then disciplinary procedures can be taken. But do you really need the hassle? So much harm is done by low grade moaning and nasty comments that you are unlikely to hear or be aware of. Personally I just don't see the point. Besides which, if someone told me I couldn't leave then that's the first thing I'd want to do. It is human nature afterall.

[/quote]

Although you can cost for non-productive time (i.e. non-billable hours whilst training) it would be a significant stretch to try and recover that, so any recovery is usually based upon course fees and - if applicable - subsistence.

I see where you're coming from in respect of 'hassle' in respect of performance management, but its no more (and often less) than accounting, VAT returns, H&S audits etc etc which many practices and companies also do (without choise!). Moreoever, good performance management need not be onerous, but almost certainly does (should) be for the betterment of the practice and its other employees............

You're right that no-one can be stopped from leaving - nor in many cases would an employer wish to stop them - but you can at least recover some of the investment from someone who woulde have left anyway.

Re: Sick pay

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:09:48 GMT

How on earth do you quantify how much training has cost though???

Re: Sick pay

Neal Palk — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:03:24 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Pay peanuts...get monkeys![/quote]

.....feeling a bit p***ed off with employment law in general.

[/quote]

Apologies for the self-promotion, but the services offered by my company - and others - remove most of this pissedoffedness.............more often than not at a tiny fraction of the cost. In this case, a simple contractual variation would have avoided the topic in all probability and if the worst happened, allowed you to recoup some/all of the outlay.

Re: Sick pay

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:53:43 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Would you really have wanted her tied to the position for one or two years then?? She could do no end of harm to staff morale before she leaves.[/quote]

Obviously not...... but you can contract them to pay back the training costs if they leave within a specified time. If they choose to act the a*se rather during that period, then that is a performance management/disciplinary issue.

Re: Sick pay

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:44:47 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]I do pay training, but would in future add a clause to their contracts after one nurse buggered off as soon as she got her qualification. I was glad to see the back of her though.[/quote]

Would you really have wanted her tied to the position for one or two years then?? She could do no end of harm to staff morale before she leaves...

Re: Sick pay

plantagenet — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:34:38 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Pay peanuts...get monkeys![/quote]

But that's the point, I don't pay peanuts. I pay a good rate for work done and that is where my responsibility ends - apart obviously from putting them at risk. I do pay training, but would in future add a clause to their contracts after one nurse buggered off as soon as she got her qualification. I was glad to see the back of her though.

With hard times, the money that goes to staff may well be coming out of my pocket and the business is founded on my children's inheritance.

Coping with mass pregnancy amongst my nurses so having to do most of the lifting myself and feeling a bit p***ed off with employment law in general.

Re: Sick pay

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:35:33 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]Just pondering, but why shouldn't someone put their children before their employees.[/quote]

Hmmm....surely these fall into two diffeent categories - personal and business. I think that seeing any money that you give to your staff as directly taking it away from your children is a dangerous way to look at things as far as the future health of your business is concerned. Building up your business, especially investing in good personnel, is the best way of ensuring your future financial health! Pay peanuts...get monkeys!

Re: Sick pay

plantagenet — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:08:59 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]child just started private school or uni-[/quote]

Just pondering, but why shouldn't someone put their children before their employees. I do dislike the paternalisation (not sure that's a word) of employment. It's like the employer pension contributions, I am genuinely not interested in my employee's retirement finances, I'll be dead by the time they retire, but my children's' futures......

Re: Sick pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:05:18 GMT

This sounds exactly like the situation in my practice when the nursing auxiliary took advantage of my generosity-so spoiled things for everyone else If your contract (as mine did ) states SSP then that is all the practice are compelled to adhere to If they were more generous in the past-that was presicely what it was-generosity

I would imagine that either:

a) someone has ben taking advantage

b) in the present economic climate they are having to really make every saving they can-the alternative might be redundancies-and don'tforget that as fixed costs remain the same-a small decrease in turnover can have a large efffect on net profit

c) one or more of the partners has a personal need for an increased income-moved toa more upmarket house-child just started private school or uni-marital probs heading for a divorce-etc

You're in the best position to judge which (if any ) of these is most likely

Wynne

Re: Sick pay

midlandsvet973 — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:43:22 GMT

Thanks for all the replies. I certainly don't expect to get paid for staying late occasionally or working over lunchtime etc but then I think the goodwill has to work both ways. A few days paid sick would be nice - we've had various bugs go through work because a member of staff has come into work when really they shouldn't have done and have spread their germs round. This was usually a member of hourly paid staff who was going to lose pay if they didn't come in. Obviously there will always be people who will abuse the system though. We never have vets meeting during working hours (reception and the nurses do - hourly paid!) they are always after work.

Our contracts are a bit vague about sick pay all it says is that in the event of absence due to sickness or injury you must notify the practice manager immediately. Failure to do this could result in loss of pay. In another clause that the practice adheres to statutory sick pay. They then gave us all a letter in about November last year that stated exactly what we were going to get depending on length of service (I signed my contract almost 3 years ago) . I suppose that means that they haven't really changed anything contractually but are just enforcing it? The partners are nice people (generally) but are not good at people management or keeping up morale. The practice manager is worse. I think it's sometimes difficult to raise issues like this without making the working relationship difficult. I don't want to get labelled as a trouble maker. Although it seems there may not be much to raise it just seems a bit unfair.

'Clarified' because that's how they described it but 'change' because it was different to what had been implemented before.

Re: Sick pay

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:13:44 GMT

We only get SSP. We used to get paid the 3 days before it kicked in but one member of staff in the past abused it and it was stopped (after that staff member had left!).

Re: Sick pay

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:11:46 GMT

I don't employ vets but my sick pay for my salaried nurses is 2 weeks full pay, 4 weeks at full pay minus SSP, then SSP. There have been one or two who have abused it occasionally but because the others have to cover their sick colleagues and they may lose time off what goes around comes around and it becomes self policing. They now also have private medical insurance. I'd never considered being so tight as to not give sick pay. That said I've never had a day off sick in 35 years employed or self-employed!

Re: Sick pay

Mark Holmes — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:56:28 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

I agree about evening meetings, my staff wouldn't like it and neither would I for that matter. We have semi-regular staff meetings and it is "standard" for them to be postponed at least once due to being busy. But so be it. But re. the questions that have arisen about working-to-rule and finishing time, don't forget the quieter days that we all have when there is less work than others - it's give and take, surely?

[/quote]

Probably although my childminder finishes at 6 and so therefore must I.

Re: Sick pay

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:55:01 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]In Germany the employer has to continue to pay full wages if an employee is sick. Only after six weeks of sickness the health insurance company takes over, paying 67 % of the original wages to the employee. [/quote]

How does small business cope with that - do you insure to cover the cost?

[/quote]

Afaik there is no insurance for this, it's just something every business owner has to cope with. Trainee's sick days can be covered, the health insurance pays 67% of the wages to the employer if a trainee is sick. But not the normal staff.