A letter

Re: A letter

Colin Thomson — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:34:41 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]There's no doubt this is a contentious issue to have stirred this sort of hyperbole.[/quote]

Now that's just hubris on your part.

There's no real contention regarding your original issue, only a lot of people disagreeing with you - but you should be used to that.

Colin

Re: A letter

J G Wray — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:17:47 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]If BCVA(on behalf of it's members ) was to sue JGW for libel I wonder how the judge would decide-could be very expensive for JGW!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

If BCVA was to sue? If BCVA were to sue ( subjunctive) ? Where's the defamation of anyone especially of BCVA?

There's no doubt this is a contentious issue to have stirred this sort of hyperbole.

Why don't LA and mixed practices want to use their subsidised talking shop to emphasise their own credentials? It beats me. Where's the self-confidence?

JGW

Re: A letter

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:55:09 GMT

Well said Bob-and absolutely true BTW over 30 years ago a Swansea practice , which at that time was over 50% farm animal had an Indian partner-who was very highly regarded by all the farmers JGW has accused an entire chunk of our profession of criminal actions-a very serious accusation-and as far as I can see, has totally failed to substantiate this accusation

If BCVA(on behalf of it's members ) was to sue JGW for libel I wonder how the judge would decide-could be very expensive for JGW!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: A letter

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:57:51 GMT

I have to say it has not actually occurred to me to discriminate anyway! I don't give a monkeys what shape, size, colour, gender anyone is! I want them to be able to do their job, be easy to get on with (ideally a good laugh to make the days easier), loyal, reliable and hardworking.

Gone are the days that anything other than a tiny minority of clients care about anything other how they and their animals are looked after.

Re: A letter

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:08:43 GMT

Thanks I appreciate the compliments to Welsh farmers

Wynne

Re: A letter

karen jones — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:15:24 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

If you're in the Oswestry area, competance in Welsh might be more relevant

Wynne

[/quote]

Any new staff often struggle with understanding farmers and the Welsh farm name spelling in the day book can be very interesting, we hope they remember to get phone number! The Welsh farmers are usually lovely, still get tea and cake and the LA vets often argue about who does the TB test where there is a large cooked lunch likely to arrive. I only do large animal work at nights and weekends but find it a nice change from the intensity and expectation of the small animal client (though I don't do TB testing) A nice drive around at a weekend seeing a few cows and having a chat is almost working the weekend!

Re: A letter

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:39:42 GMT

If you're in the Oswestry area, competance in Welsh might be more relevant

Wynne

Re: A letter

karen jones — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:10:35 GMT

As a partner in a mixed practice on the Welsh/Shropshire border I have found this post depressing. i don't often get involved with political treads as the replies are often vicious. We are tier 3 on small animal side and have practice standards on the farm side. We do our best to follow legislation even if some of it seems barking mad. We employ 3 full time assistants ,one male and Dutch and 2 female and British. We have never discriminated re colour, creed or sexuality and find it offensive that the inference is that small animal practice is none discriminatory while we are and that la/mixed practice is run by white males. There has been enough threads on this forum about people being badly treated by corporates etc which are small animal by large.

I think for the profession should celebrate its diversity and work together rather than fight. The job is hard enough without the different parts of the profession "dissing" each other

For what its worth, our farmers want a competent vet whatever but my proviso would be the level of English

Re: A letter

Julian Earl — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:35:23 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

do you not think that it would be truly lamentable if we were only seen as a service industry for the pet-owners?

[/quote]

What else are we? What we appear to be seen as - in some quarters at least - is a service industry routinely overcharging for its services and growing fat on other people's distress. There's nothing wrong with a good service industry. I just wish the more vocal ignoramuses would inform themselves a bit better before they go into auto-vet-fee-bashing mode.

[/quote]

Well hopefully we are an integral part of the food-production industry as well and advocates for food animals' welfare to boot.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"] it would be truly lamentable if we were only seen as a service industry for the pet-owners[/quote]

Perhaps, but it would still be better than being DEFRA's patsy.

[/quote]

It's not either/or though, is it?

Re: A letter

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:55:17 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"] it would be truly lamentable if we were only seen as a service industry for the pet-owners[/quote]

Perhaps, but it would still be better than being DEFRA's patsy.

Re: A letter

Lorna McHardy — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:49:20 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

do you not think that it would be truly lamentable if we were only seen as a service industry for the pet-owners?

[/quote]

Re: A letter

Julian Earl — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:03:29 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

I employed an Italian locum and he was the worst locum I have ever employed. ..........I sacked him on the Thursday and only then because I was away on the Wednesday

[/quote]

Would you employ another italian vet?

[/quote]

I'd make damn sure of his/her credentials first and not just believe the locum agency if I was considering it!

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]I think you will find there is indeed shortage of LA vets, or vets willing and able to work in mixed practice. [/quote]

No, Prof Lowe's report was specific on that point.

[/quote]

All I can say is that my previous reply described my experience for at least the the last five years. Others that I have spoken to have commented the same. Regardless of what Professor Lowe says... :shrugs:

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]if BVA and other veterinary bodies are seen to prioritise the small animal side of our business then we lose political clout on both sides because we are ultimately then a service industry for non-essential animals. Only by having a large foot in the door on the agricultural side do we have input, (a) into that side, and (b) into other inter-related animal health issues.[/quote]

This is hubris, which is something BVA have been guilty of for years. Catlow talked of "dining at the high table" which was always nonsense and subsequently their dealing with Defra has been lamentable. I don't think anyone should fall for this line. [/quote]

You may well be correct about the LA side over-estimating its influence, but do you not think that it would be truly lamentable if we were only seen as a service industry for the pet-owners? Assuming of course that we have not reached that status already.

[quote user="J G Wray"]

As a matter of interest how much importance do you place on employing vets who will be palatable to your clients?

JGW

[/quote]

Good question. Probably some, even if not a conscious, deliberate, defining basis for my decision, maybe there is some effect. But as a previous employer of a black British/Zimbabwean, a black female Namibian, a Belgian with an Irish accent, and South African, Australian, and Irish locums, I don't think I can be accused of being too considerate.

Re: A letter

Mark Holmes — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:59:46 GMT

As far as passive discrimination goes there are two issues.

Firstly is it a false assumption that a particular person will not be accepted that is based on personal bigotry and prejudice or secondly is it a genuine recognition of it in others? The first is nothing more than discrimination and "isms" the second it may be a more difficult conundrum.

Re: A letter

Clive Ansell — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:41:46 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I'm not sure Yorkshire farmers would be ready for a black, one legged lesbian................

[note the wink!]

[/quote]

They even might enjoy it ?

also note the wink

Re: A letter

Colin Thomson — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:13:36 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Lowe's report was a curate's egg, but it did emphasise the need for LA/mixed practice to understand, ralistically, its value to and place in society (not indulge in hubris). Part of this is behaving responsibly and, frankly, legally. That includes a demonstration of compliance in employment practice as society requires.[/quote]

LA/mixed practice has no greater requirement to demonstrate compliance with employment practice than SA practice does - or indeed any business does. And you have yet to deomonstrate that LA/mixed practice's record in emplyoment law and practice is any worse than either SA practice or business in general.

Colin

Re: A letter

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:37:29 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I'm not sure Yorkshire farmers would be ready for a black, one legged lesbian[/quote]

The wink is noted but I think you are on very thin ice. Is it the blackness, the gender, the sexuality or the disability that might justify the Yorkshire Farmers' discrimination?

Re: A letter

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:31:47 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]This is hubris, which is something BVA have been guilty of for years. Catlow talked of "dining at the high table" which was always nonsense and subsequently their dealing with Defra has been lamentable. I don't think anyone should fall for this line.[/quote]

Agree without reservation.

Re: A letter

J G Wray — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 07:42:15 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Is that not even more important than many other skills? People pick a vet because they seem to care not because they can do a TPLO and spay a cat in 4 minutes. How 'likeable' a vet is will gain or lose a practice clients. [/quote]

Well, not according to Prof Lowe's report which is the engine behind the formation of the VDC.

Lowe's report was a curate's egg, but it did emphasise the need for LA/mixed practice to understand, ralistically, its value to and place in society (not indulge in hubris). Part of this is behaving responsibly and, frankly, legally. That includes a demonstration of compliance in employment practice as society requires.

JGW

Re: A letter

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 00:26:03 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]As a matter of interest how much importance do you place on employing vets who will be palatable to your clients?[/quote]

Is that not even more important than many other skills? People pick a vet because they seem to care not because they can do a TPLO and spay a cat in 4 minutes. How 'likeable' a vet is will gain or lose a practice clients.

I'm not sure Yorkshire farmers would be ready for a black, one legged lesbian................

[note the wink!]

Re: A letter

J G Wray — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 22:28:20 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

I employed an Italian locum and he was the worst locum I have ever employed. ..........I sacked him bon the Thursday and only then because I was away on the Wednesday

[/quote]

Would you employ another italian vet?

[quote user="Julian Earl"]I think you will find there is indeed shortage of LA vets, or vets willing and able to work in mixed practice.[/quote]

No, Prof Lowe's report was specific on that point.

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Re. the cross-subsidisation, I assume you are talking at the political level within BVA? [/quote]

Yup[quote user="Julian Earl"]if BVA and other veterinary bodies are seen to prioritise the small animal side of our business then we lose political clout on both sides because we are ultimately then a service industry for non-essential animals. Only by having a large foot in the door on the agricultural side do we have input, (a) into that side, and (b) into other inter-related animal health issues.[/quote]

As a matter of interest how much importance do you place on employing vets who will be palatable to your clients?

JGW

Re: A letter

Julian Earl — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:12:36 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

If you read my original posting you will note I am writing about perception when being asked for advice. In discussing this sort of thing publicly no one expects an employer to put their hand up and say, for example, " I appointed a Spanish vet, worst thing I ever did, never again." nor would anyone expect an employee to say" I've been told I have no chance because of my ethnicity - the clients wouldn't like it". But they did, the latter that is, on this list.

[/quote]

I employed an Italian locum and he was the worst locum I have ever employed. Not because he was Italian specifically admittedly, although his English was barely comprehensible; he was, according to the agency, experienced but had never spayed a cat, and he had worked in the country according to the agency, but had only seen practice for some weeks or months and never "worked" as a vet.

I sacked him bon the Thursday and only then because I was away on the Wednesday.

[quote user="J G Wray"]

As for "evidence" - well, on the point of employment in LA and mixed practice, you will recall how LA and mixed practices claimed there would be and was a shortage of LA vets to meet future needs, despite farmers perceiving no problem. They, the leaders in BVA and BCVA banged on about it until Defra looked into it and found none. Taking LA and mixed practice employers' word about employment issues should be taken with a pinch of salt.

LA and mixed practice is absolutely reliant on companion animal practice members in BVA to cross subsidise activities designed to protect their own income and status. They have even invented a millstone for BVA's companion animal members called the VDC. The VDC looks like a soon to be expensive talking shop, for companion animal members . RCVS will gloat when BVA commits funds to the support of a controlling minority of the BVA membership and it all gets out of hand. In order to go even a small way to justifying itself it needs an easy win for LA/mixed practice. I think they're starting in the wrong place by trying to change practice. If they engaged practices, opened lines of communication with a political and sensitive issue like this and demonstrated how perception isn't the truth then LA and mixed practices will start to engagewith VDC. Furthermore, if companion animal members see that LA and mixed practices are a balanced and palatable bunch then the cross subsidy will continue.

JGW

[/quote]

I think you will find there is indeed shortage of LA vets, or vets willing and able to work in mixed practice. Maybe pure LA practices are okay but advertoise for an experienced mixed vet and you are likjely to receive close to zeero UK applicants. Treu, you'll get lots from Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Finland, Argentina, etc., etc., etc., many of whom seem to think experience involves meat inspection or equine only, or research. Nearly all UK applicants who want to work in mixed practice are new graduates with varying levels of hands-on experience and this can, in some instances, be an issue. This practice is not alone in finding this if I am to believe my colleagues.

Re. the cross-subsidisation, I assume you are talking at the political level within BVA? In general practice I believe the oft-quoted pets subsidising farm work to be a myth. Politically however, you are probably correct but I would not be so quick to disparage this; if BVA and other veterinary bodies are seen to prioritise the small animal side of our business then we lose political clout on both sides because we are ultimately then a service industry for non-essential animals. Only by having a large foot in the door on the agricultural side do we have input, (a) into that side, and (b) into other inter-related animal health issues. I would not disagree that the VDC must not be allowed to be strongly biased towards the LA side, but I would be careful about dismissing the importance of the influence that can only be provided by a significant LA proportion even if disproportionate to the number of LA vets.

Re: A letter

J G Wray — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:05:38 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]There seems tobe an awful lot of innuendo-and very little solid fact in this thread[/quote]

I'm disappointed you feel the need to belitle the contribution from "Anon" and "MeeraM."

The stuff about LA/mixed practitioners was in Phillip Lowe's report

I know what we've been up to, and I presume others claims are accurate in respect of their employment record.

It's certainly a touchy subject and the idea that the bucolic image of the mixed practice/LA practice employer might not be all it seems might be a bit of a hit, but they're exploiting resources and a sentiment tot heir own ends.

If they are modern in their employment practice there's no problem. If not, then their credibility as professionals is corroded and the profession diminished in turn. BVA hasn't had a win with VDC yet. It needs one. Why not this?

JGW

Re: A letter

Niall Taylor — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:59:36 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]There seems tobe an awful lot of innuendo-and very little solid fact in this thread

Wynne[/quote]

- not to mentin insinuation...

Niall

Re: A letter

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:48:11 GMT

There seems tobe an awful lot of innuendo-and very little solid fact in this thread

Wynne

Re: A letter

J G Wray — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:40:16 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]However as a small animal vet I feel it appropriate to point out that the value of the LA side of our profession should be measured in more than just financial terms. LA vets put food on our tables, they literally help feed the nation. [/quote]

Do they put food on our tables? The essence of VDC, engineered by LA./mixed practitioners themselves, is that they are just another stakeholder in food production, not necessarily any more important than slaughtermen.

How much are you prepared to pay for their self-preservation?

DO you want to be involved in subsidising a group which might not even operate to the same levels of probity in employment practice as you?

JGW