Criteria for becoming a vet

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:47:08 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]It is hardly surprising that there is no work experience in the medical world. Would you like a 15yr old sitting in during a medical consultation for piles?[/quote]

No I wouldn't - but the surprising thing to me is that my daughter (now at university studying physiotherapy) had no problem getting work experience shadowing physios in the local hospital. Seems odd that they can't do something similar for prospective med students - following nurses would be helpful as there would be contact with front line medics.

Sorry for thread hijacking!

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 09:36:05 GMT

I suspect a lifetime in contact with the veterinary world would be seen as a great bonus for an applicant for medicine. Both professions take a lot of work, pressure and academically have a lot in common.

The people skills required are similar as well.

It is hardly surprising that there is no work experience in the medical world. Would you like a 15yr old sitting in during a medical consultation for piles?

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:41:59 GMT

I have always felt strongly that regardless of academic ability, one of the attributes a good vet need is an excellent memory. Partly to remember all the multitudes of information in the course, but also that obscure disease that you have never seen, but know is in front of you in the surgery, and you have to drag it out of the depths.. (or maybe that is just me).

I would also agree that a liking for animals is essential. Sure we all have some we don't like so much, but I definitely think that clients pick up on your affinity with their pets, and are more impressed sometimes by that than by your ability to do some amazing surgery. To this extent we always have one of our own dogs in the office when we interview staff, as those that ignore them or positively push them away are not going to be high on our list.

Having a son in mid A levels at present, they do seem to be quite hard (I can't compare fully as I did Scottish Highers, and my daughter did the International Baccalaureate). His (comprehensive) school is relatively good, but certainly not coaching for interviews or giving extra tuition, that is all up to the students themselves. He is aiming for medicine so has a struggle ahead, the main one being that getting work experience that might allow him to see what a doctor's job might involve is all but impossible, even with some contacts.

I got lots of work experience prior to applying, and it certainly helped to confirm my choice of career. And although I might moan from time to time about it, I still generally love the job, and find it very satisfying, particularly the rapport with clients of many years standing, some of whom I have known since they were children (therefore making me feel really old!).

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

shanley barber — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 21:13:56 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'm sure one of the factors leading to so many leaving the profession is that they are bored

[/quote]

Or disillusioned with level of pay as compared to their dentist/lawyer/doctor friends from Uni.

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Rob Loxley — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:55:58 GMT

Some thoughts:

re European vet schools with lower entrance requirements: yes I've heard that but also that there is a high attrition rate over the course, so I'd be tempted to say that you do need to select applicants at the entrance stage that have shown the intellectual level to complete the course. High levels of dropping out is not in anyone's interest.

Cambridge (and I believe London and Bristol) require applicants to sit the BMAT test, which while I accept has its own limitations, gives the institution more to go on for selection beyond GSCE and A-Level results, and to help see which candidates are likely to have the ability to complete the course. Likewise interviews, though again I'm not sure which institutions do interview, what % of candidates they interview (and how these are chosen) and who is doing the interviewing.

Given the number of people achieving >AAB results, can we not find enough suitable candidates with the right aptitude/outlook amongst them?

I agree with the the comment about preparing vets for a wide career choice - it's not a straight apprenticeship to go and work in small animal general practice - even if that's what a majority do.

my twopenneth

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Julian Earl — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 16:19:26 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

A first necessary selection criterion seems to me trying to judge if the aspirant student will be able to finish the course. To finish vet school you must be able to sit and study study study, masses of info to simply stuff your head with. But you must also be bright enough to manage your way through complex systems and problems. Academic excellence is not absolutely necessary, we all know the examples of people who didn't have the A stars but managed to become good solid vets, or brilliant outside the box thinking scientists. But on average it does help to have achieved good grades in secondary education.

I would also think that for a vet it is necessary to show a liking and a feeling for dealing with animals.

[/quote]

I agree; grades have to be used to judge whether someone has the capacity to absorb information but the teaching system in university shoiuld be heavily focussed on how to then use that information rather than just retain the facts. On our first day of the course at Liverpool, Professor King told us that we would have to learn 20,000 new words in the five year course but that having passed a levels we should cope with the course - if we wanted to. I don't know who counted them, but you clearly have to set some sort of high minimum standard for grades in order to demonstrate a bit of cerebral capacity for knowledge. Three As? Three Bs? Which leads me to...

The other aspect that I don't think anyone has delved into is the subject of the A-level grades themselves. What is the purpose of A-level grades? To demonstrate a volume of knowledge or to compare potential students to their peers? The proportion of straight As at A level is now fantastically high, so much so that "we" all complain that the exams must be easier. I do not know whether the amount of information taught now is greater than when I was at school - are sixth-formers really absorbing so much more information nowadays?

But the real problem from a veterinary perspective is that, when so many people achieve A grades, how do you know who is the brightest anyway? [Back in the day] when I was at school - a good school, regarded as one of, if not the best in Leeds - we were not allowed to take more than seven, maybe eight, O levels, and three A levels (other than a fourth "General studies" which seemed to be general knowledge!) because it was deemed too difficult. Those who got straight As were bright, seriously bright and stood out as such. Is every one who gets straight As now as bright as those select few? The point is that it was relatively easy then for a veterinary faculty to choose who would be able to get through the course, at least based on A level grades. In addition, where Liverpool had it right was that at least a third of my year, 50-strong at the start, had either worked, or re-sat, or done some other related course - I think that reflected well on our year.

Re. the feelings for animals: I believe that if you are a good vet, it should not matter whether you like them or not. It presupposes my definition of a good vet but if you might hate the little b.... in front of you, but as A Good Vet ( (c) J.Earl) it should not affect how you treat that animal, either medically or behaviourally.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

...I'm sure one of the factors leading to so many leaving the profession is that they are bored

[/quote]

Really? I don't think boredom per se is the problem, it is the expectations of the work that they will do which is somewhat different. Okay, they may be bored by doing a lot of cat spays instead of disc fenestrations but that is where the value of experience comes in. Some sort of time spent with vets should be essential prior to attending college. (I'll shoot my argument in the foot now by saying that we had a bloke in our year who had not spent time at vets until his third year at college but has made a good career for himself - it was a hell of a risk for the university to take all the same.)

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 13:29:07 GMT

Micheal You've said it Over 50% of my operations are spays/castrations Nothing intellectually challenging in yet another cat castration-but I get my satisfaction from thinking of the thousands and thousands of puppies and kittens I've saved from the suffering which would occur if they came into a world which did not want them

We need the specialists for when people like me are out of their depth We also need the general practitioners who are happy,and fulfilled as general practitioners The present selection process favours those who want to be specialists-but there's not enough specialist jobs to go round

I'm sure one of the factors leading to so many leaving the profession is that they are bored

As to the comment about doing without sleep-try the lambing/calving season in mid-Wales-I did it for 3 years-and functioned with extreme sleep deprivation-and yes-the profession needs workhorses who can do that, as well as intellectuals who discover new treatments

Read the obituary column in the Veterinary Record-many of the veterinary surgeons of the generation before me were farmers younger sons-who had grown up used to morning milking before school and evening milking after-so didn't expect a lot of time off-and although entrance requirements were lower when they started-they made good practical hard-working veterinary surgeons who devoted a life-time to their profession,and were highly respected in their communities

Wynne

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Claire Godfrey — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:48:24 GMT

I remember year ago a foreign vet elling me their intake of vets was made up of

40% who got top grades AAA, 30% who got good grades, maybe one A two B's but had done a fair amount of work experience, and 30% who had average grades but had done lots of work experience with good reports obviously.

Cannot remember which country, possibly not trus, I was about 13!

Strikes me might be a fairly fair system? Would get the academics, which we do need to continue our professions research etc. Would also get very practically minded vets. It might even take away the issue of the students that went to the top schools getting in. Those that were struggling for grades due to schooling could do a lot of work placements and get reports to support their application.

I am sure it is a difficult job deciding on admissions, but think something needs to change.

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

KMurphy — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:25:18 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]PS - if you're the KMurphy I think you are...hiya![/quote]

I am! Hi to you too!

Re: Try again

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:11:52 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

Asking somebody at 16 to make life determining decisons seens a little bizare, they are essentially making decisions for their 30 and 40 year old selves. Should it be become possible I would not allow my 16 year old self to come from the past and make life determining decsions now.

[/quote]Interesting that 2 have made this observation. The American collegiate system has made this observation as you can't really specialise until your early 20's for any course

The RVC (and that includes me) took students who retook A Levels (70%),

An analysis of those who qualified in 1990 and those still in practice would be interesting and would give some of the answers you're seeking here.

Neil

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

argyro koukouseli — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:08:42 GMT

IMO criteria change on every step of the way,univercitys criteria apply to people capable and willing to be educated on a science,then criteria change and you have to prove that you learnd and are capable of practising this science at least on a basic level.Then criteria change again depending on your goal:vet academic,vet teacher,vet practitioner,very good vet practitioner,very good and popular practitioner,cause few can combine all that.so maybe grades are good criteria for someone to make their first steps,cause otherwise you would have to create criteria for the diffent aims.For eg.a great dancer may not be a great teacher,and an average dancer may be better in cooperation than the great one,but they all have to succed minimum criteria to be dancers. To me grades stand for efficiency which is substantial to becoming any type of vet.

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Clive Ansell — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 21:12:28 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]That's me out then - no patience, and no tolerance of idiots at all -In fact I get less tolerant and less patient with age - pre senile onset Meldrewism.[/quote]

Is that a related condition to DocMartinism?

[/quote]

I owned a pair when I was younger, but I didn't know they were still made. I wear Keen sandals these days.

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 21:03:36 GMT

I think it is a mistake to want to select future vets on their ability to become a vet practitioner. It seems to me that the UK is fairly unique in having such an overwhelming proportion of vets in practice (small animal practice predominantly). A veterinary degree can lead to many other careers than being a practitioner, from scientist to extentionist, manager to meat technologist, public health inspectors, civil servants applying laws or helping to create or negotiate them.

I would also think that for a vet it is necessary to show a liking and a feeling for dealing with animals.

For the rest, let society select the proper vets for the proper jobs. If you discover you hate dealing with the public, or can't deal with nights on call, there are still lots of jobs that don't need these abilities and are still proper vet jobs.

In conclusion: for me a vet is not automatically a practitioner at all. And aspirant students should not be heavily selected with the practitioner in mind.

Mariette

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Clair Firth — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:26:33 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious ones - an ability to do without sleep, food or rest or for long periods, endless patience, a high pain threshold and a high tolerance for difficult people

[/quote]

As a mature student with 2 kids I'm feeling quite positive about my job chances now I can definitely tick all these boxes!

On a more serious note, I didn't get the grades needed for UK vet school (as others have said: comprehensive school - no physics teachers available, chemistry teachers "forgetting" our lessons etc!) and moved abroad after studying Animal Science at Nottingham. After 10yrs in Vienna I applied for Vet school here (the course is in German) and have had no real problems with the level of Chemistry or Physics......I was forced to take extra Latin lessons though! I think/hope that being more mature (I'm 36) helps me when talking to owners but of course, we can't just tell all the 18yr olds to wait until they're older before becoming a vet. There is no ideal solution - here in Vienna it is "relatively easy" to get into vet school but very hard to stay the course (lots of knock-out exams where they just want to reduce the number of students) so I suppose our degree makes sure we have a certain level of stamina which can't be a bad thing?

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Utlendigur — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:44:55 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]That's me out then - no patience, and no tolerance of idiots at all -In fact I get less tolerant and less patient with age - pre senile onset Meldrewism.[/quote]

Is that a related condition to DocMartinism?

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]why do without sleep, food or rest? this is aptitude for veterinary training, not a Royal Marine selection course. [/quote]

Could you please remind my boss of that

Re: Try again

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:09:00 GMT

I disagree that you don't need to be very much brighter than average. It's tricky as we are discussing the issue and we all got lots of A's! I remember people in my year struggling with the shear volume of work, not specifically the difficulty. There is a huge amount of stuff to know and we are making very complex decisions all the time. Look at the difficulty some of our clients have handling the information we clearly present to them with the sensible options.

I think the biggest problem is the universities not training the students for a life in general practice, where most will end up. We spent more time on thoracic surgery than reproductive surgery! Other than a ruptured diaphragm which is technically thoracic surgery most of us will never do any, compare that to routine neutering! Anaesthesia used so many human drugs with no care for the cascade (human pethidine vials), and spent so much time putting dogs on constant rate infusions and ventilators. They liked you to keep turning animals down until they started to wake up mid surgery. Neurology rotation involved glorified floor buffing with paraplegic dacchies, I learnt nothing.

I made a lot of effort to make sure I would be useful on day one, and arranged my seeing practice to that goal. Day 1 I could spay a cat, castrate a dog on my own. I spent extra time on rectalling cows, did a foot trimming course [at my own] expense etc etc.

One of our neighbouring practices who we share on call just employed a new grad. She couldn't spay a cat and had never seen a cervical prolapse in a ewe. Needs constant reassurance and not prepared to make own decisions. I feel sorry for how under-prepared for practice she is. Not sure who's fault it is, but the system has let this lass down.

Re: Try again

plantagenet — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:28:59 GMT

If it were not for the horrible debt incurred, I would make it graduate (or mature students with experience) entry. I do think it is sad for 14-16 year olds to have to be sure of what they want to do.

I think you do have to be reasonably academic and we do need a few brains for some branches of the profession, but we also need caring, compassionate, hard workers with a real vocation - now how identify that in an applicant I don't know, let alone in a 17-18 year old.

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:26:51 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]Always interesting to read these discussions because, being Irish, all I had to do was get the required grades to get my place in vet med. No interviews, experience or aptitude tests required! [/quote]

Me too! Didn't get any offers from UK unis - I don't know if it was because I had repeated lower sixth year (moved schools and my new school did modular A levels whereas the old one didn't) that my application got placed in the round file, or perhaps my UCAS form wasn't up to scratch. Anyway, got into Dublin on the strength of my 3 As alone and here I am nearly nine years post graduation, still enjoying it and doing OK. I believe the dropout rate at Dublin is fairly low and constant. I know of two people in my year who have changed careers (one accountant, one dentist) post graduation but in general I think blind selection works surprisingly well, at least in Ireland.

PS - if you're the KMurphy I think you are...hiya!

Re: Try again

Mark Holmes — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:36:34 GMT

The whole universiy application and admissions needs a review, not just for veterinary but for the whole system. Where is the logic in deciding at school what subjects you want to study ? What is the rush? Finish school, maybe have a year out and then go into fulltime education get significantly into debt and spend years paying for it. The system is illogical.

A far a better approach would be to apply from employment. Employers should get incentives to employ a school leaver, for example zero national insurance on the first 2 years and applications should happen from there, distance and part time courses should be encouraged to allow students more time for work to support studies if necessary and employers should be encouraged to act as sponsors, for example tax free contributions towards tuition fees for example

Re: Try again

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:10:16 GMT

The problem is so few veterinary schoolstaff have substantial and I mean substantial not a year or 2 practice experience-so it's nowonder it's the blind leading the blind

Wynne

Re: Try again

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 16:33:07 GMT

The biggest problem is not the selection of candidates for vet school, but that the teaching at vet school does little to prepare for life in general practice.

Re: Try again

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 16:22:20 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

I was once sat in a veterinary office and heard a colleague on the phone saying "yes the tests have come back and your cat has lymphocytic cholangiohepatitis, theres some medication for you...... yes thats fine bye".

I think grades show ones ability to learn and nothing more, our course is no more demanding than that of a doctor or dentist, in fact for the first 2 years we had lectures with them.

I think that offers should be conditional of a year in relevant work prior to entry to let potential vets get some world experience. Thats what I look for most when I interview. They are nothing to my practice if they cannot maintain the approachability that my practice stands on. I think the arrogance alluded to earlier comes from students with top grades with inflated opinions of themselves.

Was that a bit strong? Sorry if it was

[/quote]

Sometimes five stars are not enough

Re: Try again

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 16:19:05 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Bose"]

Right, I'll take up the debate. I would argue that grades do matter, and I would be sceptical about placing too much emphasis on communication skills, which can be learnt. The danger of the latter is that 'communication skills' become replaced with 'confidence at interview' and thus it is the overly confident (or cocky) candidates who get in. (I'm wincing in anticipation of the barrage of abuse that will follow that).

[/quote]

Grades matter insofar as that a certain minimum of learning ability is necessary to pass the course and do the job. But it's not the most important part of doing the job by a long way; and you do not need top grade ability to pass a veterinary course or even do well in one <trying not to think about the can of worms that is the 'standards in schools these days' debate>. And I would argue that any interviewer worth his salt should be able to distinguish between a cocky know-it-all overly taken with himself, and someone with genuine communication skills. And yes, of course those can be learnt, but just like everything else, some people are better at it than others.

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Clive Ansell — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:41:05 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[/quote]

That's me out then - no patience, and no tolerance of idiots at all -In fact I get less tolerant and less patient with age - pre senile onset Meldrewism.

why do without sleep, food or rest? this is aptitude for veterinary training, not a Royal Marine selection course.

Re: Criteria for becoming a vet

Bob Russell — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:27:46 GMT

A few particularly unsuitable people in my year left within the first couple of years. That left a right hotch-potch of students to complete the rest of the course!

As a group we all somehow found our niches in life. Starting a veterinary course does not mean you will end up a veterinary surgeon so it is easy to argue that selecting on grades is as good a way to whittle down numbers as any other.

Once qualified many have stayed in practice but some have decided it is not for them and taken other paths. A veterinary degree teaches you to work hard and be bl**dy minded in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds (I am thinking of Pathology in third year particularly!). This is very good training for life IMO.