Positive discrimination

Re: Positive discrimination

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:03:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Cross referance to the selection thread-my comment on many of the "old-fashioned " veterinary surgeons being farmer's younger sons-brought up in a small business environment-would postive discrimination in favour of those with self-employed parents improve the long-term outlook for the profession?Just asking a question

Wynne

[/quote]

Well, a small business environment would be a great idea, I think. Don't know about farmer's sons, though - how many farms these days are smallholdings? (I honestly don't know the answer, not putting down your question.)

Re: Positive discrimination

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 13:35:39 GMT

Wynne

Re: Positive discrimination

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 13:04:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I've made my views on the corporate takeover very clear in the past If we're going to retain our independance-rather than have lay owners dictating to us,then I feel that a willingness to buy in is a very relevant factor at the selection stage

[/quote]

This would be fine, if business management was thoroughly taught in vet uni. Not everyone has a knack for owning/running businesses - and I have friends who are absolutely brilliant vets who would rather be shot than own their own practice!

Re: Positive discrimination

Rob Davis — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:10:29 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]A rich kid at Eton with professional wealthy parents, in small classes with good teachers and every possible resource provided is very likely to get higher grades than a kid of similar ability from a council estate from a single parent family on benefits, with few resources in a crap school with crap teachers (or no science teachers at all in some cases) and classes of >30. Entry requirements should take such factors in to account. [/quote]

Having been fortunate enough to have benefitted from a public school education, and now having children who I can't afford to give the same opportunities to, I agree with your post. My wife was educated within the state system and was allowed to underachieve in a way which I, despite my best efforts, was unable to do. I consider myself extremely fortunate. Two of my four children are currently considering Veterinary Medicine as a career, and I am aware that it will me much tougher for them than it was for me.

(Male, Old Etonian, AAA, Cambridge 1997)

Re: Positive discrimination

Clive Ansell — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:24:36 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I'm not suggesting for a minute that they let in kids with poor grades, of course not[/quote]

Why shouldn't some applicants get in with lower grades than others?

[/quote]

I think they should in some cases - that was my point. Education, background, social factors etc should be taken in to account too. Candidates need to show a basic understanding and working knowledge of the sciences to be able to cope with the course - my old admissions tutor thought that anyone with BBB - BBC would handle the course.

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I'm not suggesting for a minute that they let in kids with poor grades, of course not. What I was trying get across is that maybe A level grades alone are not a good barometer of ability, and maybe other factors should be considered during the application process, as I think they already are? The poor kid in the example above may only get BBB (Still very respectable grades), but may make an excellent veterinary surgeon, where as the rich one may get AAAAA, and every extracurricular activity that money can throw at him, and may not necessarily make as good a veterinary surgeon??

[/quote]

Re: Positive discrimination

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:11:27 GMT

Bob Same here I applied in my 1st and 2nd years of biochem-but was told my grades were'nt good enough I also spent all my vacations seeing practice, so had well over a year's experience in a practice by my 3rd year-when they relented with a conditionaloffer which I achieved-again did better in a uni setting My physics master's best ever grade was a C so I maintain a D from him was equal to a B from someone good

Wynne

Re: Positive discrimination

Bob Russell — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:44:30 GMT

Missed all the fun here. I don't admit it to many but my 'A' level grades were cr*p and I still got in, passed my exams and seem to be making a living at the job!

I 'bullied' the admissions dept for years whilst at school. I would write a nice letter, get a nice one back saying No! i would send a more snotty letter telling them this was the wrong decision and they would send me an equally snotty one telling me they were correct to say No!

I am sure I wore them down with sheer volume of correspondence and they finally gave in and said Yes!

I got in by doing a year on another course and found that I flourished under university conditions and achieved swat-like grades that finally allowed them to relent. Was this discrimination or just the right of the college to chose?

Has anyone asked for the facts from the universities?

I don't know what the anon posts said but I would ask the OP to put his/her money where his/her mouth is and post again. These debates do get heated and sometimes you have to grow a thick skin but they are really important topics to discuss.

As someone who was 'put right' for one or two (or more!) overly harsh comments without realising till later I realise a robust debate can happen whilst maintaining respect for others deep-held views!

Re: Positive discrimination

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:37:58 GMT

Malcolm Whowas that senior veterinary surgeon?

Wynne

Re: Positive discrimination

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:44:23 GMT

Gordon-bleedin-bennett. There was me thinking it'd be OK to go out and play at the weekend.

[quote user="james herriot lied"] Yeah, I've gone and made a complete arse of myself, haven't I?[/quote]

I hate to say it, but yes.

But having said that ...

[quote user="james herriot lied"] Sorry, everybody (bad week, careless reading, self-righteous attitude: call it what you want - I'm still an arse).

Normal service will be resumed after a self-imposed lay-off.[/quote]

By no means everyone has the humility / good grace / call it what you will, to apologise.

Still, as a number of people have already highlighted, it does nothing for the debate if people just jump down each other's throats. Peronally, I think Plantaganet's OP was perfectly reasonable and he/she has nothing to apologise for.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Just for the record, I think it entirely inappropriate that people should join in these more "political" threads without revealing their identity.[/quote]

Absolutely agree. In fact, the rule is that the anonymous account can only be used for the purpose of seeking advice from colleagues.

I am now going to delete the posts in this thread that were made under tha anonymous account. Sorry to the student that posted them, it's not that your views weren't perfectly valid. And if you'd like to repost them under your real account, that's absolutely fine.

Re: Positive discrimination

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:19:35 GMT

If and I say if boys were asked for lower grades-maybe more answered positively if asked "Would you be prepared to make the committment of owning a practice ?" I'm a woman veterinary surgeon,and a practice owner-and I've made my views on the corporate takeover very clear in the past If we're going to retain our independance-rather than have lay owners dictating to us,then I feel that a willingness to buy in is a very relevant factor at the selection stage BTW My background is grammar school-rotten physics master ABD at A level - 1st generation uni (though lucky in days of grants and no fees )determined to become a veterinary surgeon,so did a biochem degree (2:1) and got onto the veterinary course with that My year 50:50 M/F

Wynne

(Put the collander on my head and duck beneath the parapet at this stage)

Re: Positive discrimination

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:45:16 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I'm not suggesting for a minute that they let in kids with poor grades, of course not[/quote]

Why shouldn't some applicants get in with lower grades than others? Whilst nobody really has the first clue what being a "good vet" actually means, let alone whether or not A level grades are a good predictor, what is known beyond doubt is that if you put a kid (any kid) into a good school then they will get better grades and have written for them a better "personal" statement than they would have had if they had gone to a poor school. Unless, of course, we believe that those who currently do disproportionately well at A levels (white, middle-class, public school girls) are simply disproportionatel cleverer than the rest - a suggestion that I find as preposterous as the suggestion from a senior veterinary surgeon that "The professions are not really women's work" - an opinion that was voiced at a time when the gender imbalance was reversed.

Positive discrimination is not ideal, but then neither is the present situation (my concern is not restricted to gender imbalance). I think that there is a debate to be had here that should be of interest to the whole profession.

Just for the record, I think it entirely inappropriate that people should join in these more "political" threads without revealing their identity.

Re: Positive discrimination

plantagenet — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:34:07 GMT

The fact that An On is so upset demonstrates why the policy would be wrong.

I hope it isn't, but ]my understanding is that the legislation for employment does not automatically cover higher education admission and there is a thin line between 'action' and 'discrimination'.

I agree completely that these issues must tackled early on in school education to give all children aspiration and good education.

I am saddened to see the automatic assumption that a boy at Eton is a spoiled, over privileged, rich brat. There are many children at independent schools on 100% scholarships and there are many parents who sacrifice a great deal to improve their children's educational chances. And those that have had all the advantages may still make good, hard working vets.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I'm the one person with some experience of this[/quote]

Well, we all got in at some stage and, for many, it was not an easy trip in with AAA at A'level straight from school.

Re: Positive discrimination

Clive Ansell — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:59:40 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

In any event; A level entrance requirement is not a fair and level playing field. A rich kid at Eton with professional wealthy parents, in small classes with good teachers and every possible resource provided is very likely to get higher grades than a kid of similar ability from a council estate from a single parent family on benefits, with few resources in a crap school with crap teachers (or no science teachers at all in some cases) and classes of >30. Entry requirements should take such factors in to account.

(Caucasian, heterosexual, normal BMI, non religious, male AAB)

[/quote]

Now this (as in my) post may be a bit controversial but bear with me. If the potential students from the poorer schools have had a bad education, in whatever relevant subjects you may wish to consider, how can the universities be expected to select them when they have not been able to demonstrate - through no fault of their own - that they have the intellect to get through the five-year course? It may well be that the rich kid in your example has managed to over-represent his/her abilities by being coached, privately educated, whatever, but the universities cannot be blamed for selecting on the basis of the only hard evidence they have, surely?

The answer has to be in sorting out the earlier years at school, not by twisting the requirements to get in to a veterinary course.

[/quote]

Re: Positive discrimination

Rob Loxley — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 23:04:00 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]Just for the record, and to return to the original debate - there is no positive discrimination going on in veterinary course recruitment right now[/quote]

Well Cambridge University runs a 'positive discrimination' type scheme (see http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/apply/forms/csas.pdf), but no sex discrimination AFAIK!

Re: Positive discrimination

argyro koukouseli — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 22:03:24 GMT

just a non-uk story/fact .........

greece's point of vew,of how and on what point system one should be able to enter univercity,changes every 4 years,alomg with our goverments,in a neverending search to find the fairest one.

10y ago,when i was a high school student,we had to undergo exams on our second and third(last)year of school,on a national level(all students around the country were given the same exams to answer),in:

greek language,ancient greek language,greek literature and poetry,modern history,history of science,mathematics,biology,geometry,physics,chemistry and for those who were interested more in meds.vets,biology,pharmac univerc,also advanced maths,biology,chemistry,physics.

i wouldnt be surprised if they had us do the gymnastics also!

...but now i am happy that i do not only understand bio,but ancient greek and...maybe poetry....

IMO there will never be a 100%fair system to enter univercity.and if you take into acount what univercity really stands for now-was supposed to be a place to get higher knowledge on something and not necerssarily practise the proffession for money it gets more and more complicated....

Re: Positive discrimination

Julian Earl — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 18:16:58 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

(Caucasian, heterosexual, normal BMI, non religious, male AAB)

[/quote]

The answer has to be in sorting out the earlier years at school, not by twisting the requirements to get in to a veterinary course.

Re: Positive discrimination

james herriot lied — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:22:41 GMT

Yeah, I've gone and made a complete arse of myself, haven't I?

Sorry, everybody (bad week, careless reading, self-righteous attitude: call it what you want - I'm still an arse).

Normal service will be resumed after a self-imposed lay-off.

Just for the record, and to return to the original debate - there is no positive discrimination going on in veterinary course recruitment right now; to do so would be illegal under several pieces of legislation. Neither should it be allowed under any circumstances, as the situation will doubtless correct itself in the fullness of time. Carry on, peeps - and once, again, sorry for the hijack.

Re: Positive discrimination

Colin Thomson — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:53:24 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Lovely. Completely untrue - best to ask the young lady not to say stuff like this, and to apply an early lesson in professionalism and the GtoPC.

[/quote]

JHL you've been critical of plantagenet for taking a comment made by another in the original post and considering it as a fact. Could you please expand on what evidence you have to support your "Completely untrue" statement?

Colin

Re: Positive discrimination

Clive Ansell — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:49:26 GMT

I don't understand the antagonism, it is a good OP and a sensible topic of debate.

What on earth is positive discrimination anyway? something is either discriminatory or it isn't. If there is alleged "positive" discrimination in favour of males then there has to, by definition, be negative discrimination against females ?????.

I am not aware of any evidence that shows that A level grades are a good indicator of intelligence or ability, or that they correlate well with performance at university, or later in the work place or in professional life.

(Caucasian, heterosexual, normal BMI, non religious, male AAB)

Re: Positive discrimination

plantagenet — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:22:38 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] wholly revisionist backtrack of your first statement[/quote]

? I have read and re-read my OP in case I had not said what I thought I said. I don't think I have but, to you, I have obviously expressed myself very badly. I have no axe to grind. I am in favour of greater diversity in the profession and in agreement that academic excellence does not necessarily make a good vet, I just have an issue with how this is done. I do want to help the next generation, as I was once helped myself, sorry if that too upset you.

Re: Positive discrimination

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:10:57 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Try this - insert the words black/ female instead of male and imagine the outcry.

[/quote]

Oh, for goodness' sake!

Re: Positive discrimination

Andrew Kent — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:47:42 GMT

Also a little confused - I think this is potentially quite an interesting discussion and struggle to see why the OP deserved such a battering! Andy

Re: Positive discrimination

Cat Henstridge — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:08:20 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Sorry, I seem to have embarrassed you into a wholly revisionist backtrack of your first statement: I do apologise. Thank you for the update on your good work in the community with both sexes - proof positive indeed that you were completely misunderstood and have no axe to grind at all.[/quote]

Like that you mean?

But seriously, Laura is right, the original post did not deserve the abuse it got and if we allow it to continue unchecked, who on earth will post anything on here of interest or debate?

Re: Positive discrimination

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:52:43 GMT

What is it about this subject that's getting people so hot under the collar? It sounded like a perfectly reasonable post to me - somebody reports that a current vet student is claiming something that sounds like positive discrimination, and that they've heard similar things from other sources, and asks whether this is a good thing or not.

And within three posts (or was it four), the words "bringing the profession into disrepute" appear, along with a lot of snapping and sniping, and a disproportionate number of anonymous posts.

I don't get it!

Bewildered of Scotland

Re: Positive discrimination

Mark Rowland — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:26:28 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

[quote user="plantagenet"]

I have assumed that James is name for man

[/quote]

And Herriot-Lied is a believable surname?

[/quote]

@James Herriot Lied, now you are just being mean. If you can't say anything nice (or constructive).......

[/quote]

? be patronising?????