Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Clive Ansell — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:00:45 GMT

Frightening trend if there is any truth to it.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 16:34:30 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] I have bought a German car and a dishwasher. How is it that Germany can produce and export quality goods, whilst at the same time giving its workers better terms and conditions than ours[/quote]

German manufacturing and exporting has benefitted massively from the inept development, management and regulation of the euro. At one and the same time they have had free access to an artificially wealthy market in the eurozone which has been able to buy German produce at a knock-down prices because the Euro, as far as being a German currency, is kept artificially low. Look at what has happened to the Swiss Franc recently - if the Germans were independent of the euro, their D-mark would be soaring in value and even those of us with independent hard currency to spend would probably baulk at the prospect of the £50,000=00 VW Golf. The Greek, Portugese etc dealerships of German luxury goods would probably never have existed. The current credit crunch is, in large part, that whole bubble bursting.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 10:33:05 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

why?

[/quote] Because you don't earn next to nothing... Recent recommendation for someone starting work is 2200.- euros a month before tax. That's a recommendation. Have a guess why people felt it was about time to have one. Most of the vets coming from vet school get paid much less than that!

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 10:01:47 GMT

Very fair point

Wynne

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Clive Ansell — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:56:37 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

So why not start manufacturing again?

In the last 6 months I have bought a German car and a dishwasher. How is it that Germany can produce and export quality goods, whilst at the same time giving its workers better terms and conditions than ours, as well as having a higher GDP per capita than us?

[/quote]

But we can produce and export quality goods. The Nissan plant at Sunderland built nearly half a million cars last year, up 14% from 2010, and many of them were exported to Europe. The question is why some companies can do it but others can't?

[/quote]

Not sure a Nissan is a (good) quality car?

Good point though, why indeed can some do it and not others? maybe because they are Japanese and are better or more efficient at management - I don't know?

Digby Jones, former director general of the CBI, was on the radio the other day involved in a debate about highly paid, taxpayer paid, NHS managers swanning around in top of the range BMW's. He asked the question, "why as public employees were they not driving British made cars, thus providing jobs here" fair point I thought.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:51:26 GMT

I don't know the answer to this one, but Nissan is a Japanese company (yet more money leaving the country ) so if the company is registered abroad, does it have to pay British corporation tax, or just the Japanese equivalent, and if so, what level is it ?

Wynne

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:42:29 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

So why not start manufacturing again?

[/quote]

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:40:01 GMT

Mark You've hit the nail on the head Massively reduced taxes combined with massively reduced benefits would get the country back on it's feet It's obscene that even with the projected cuts people will stillbe able to get £450 per week housing benefit There's millions of people who are working, paying taxes, paying their own rent or mortgage of far less than £450, and wishing they could move to a better house, but unable to afford it It's obscene that people can still get £26k in benefits After tax that's around 2.5 x take home pay for those on minimum wage

It's unjust and immoral that workers are worse off than skivers

Wynne

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:31:39 GMT

The reason we stopped manufacturing was in the 70s the unions made us uncompetitive British made goods were far more expensive than imported goods of the same quality, so obviously people bought what gave the best value Does Germany have an equivalent to employers NI? At 12.8% that massively increases the cost of employing anybody in this country

Wynne

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Clive Ansell — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:12:59 GMT

why?

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 06:35:14 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

So why not start manufacturing again?

[/quote] I actually can't tell you. But if you work as a vet you're definitely better off in the UK than in Germany.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Clive Ansell — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:24:39 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

But where are these jobs? they are simply not there. in the 3 months to Nov 2011, there were 2.64 million unemployed and rising, and 455,000 job vacancies. that's 5.8 people for each job. Link . Regardless of the Daily Mail and its BS, 5.8 people cannot fit in to one job.

[/quote]

The reason we have few jobs is that we have exported manufacturing and there are only so many specialised jobs available. Economic leakage from our economy has been huge, every penny the government spends echos around the economy until somebody spends it on an import and it then goes abroad. Thats why increasing borrowing won't work and spending it to boost the economy will not be effective because eventually it will be spent abroad probably China. Global trade is only good when it is balanced and we've has an enormous deficit for years. China refuse to let their currency be traded so it does not appreciate in value hence their labour remains cheap relative to ours. Jobs will only be created by encouraging business into this country and that requires a low tax economy, an improved business environment and NOT TAXING THE HELL OUT OF THOSE WITH MONEY TO INVEST. At the moment if you take a risk and build a business which is successful you get penalised for it with a high marginal tax rate, you get penalised every time you spend it with high VAT and if after all that you manage to save anything you get penalised because you have saved. Your estate gets penalised when you die because God forbid you give your children any help as it would be unfair on those people who don't get any help.

[/quote]

So why not start manufacturing again?

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:48:06 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

The thing is I can see their point. Recruitment is expensive and he would leave at the first opportunity if something better suited to his qualifications came up. Yes he could work at Tesco for a while but he had no intention of staying there or even stopping his job hunt. So if you owned a business would you recruit him? Or would you recruit somebody who would be happy with the position.

[/quote]

Yes, I would try to recruit somebody who would be happy with the position. I would want to know why he's applying for this particular job. If, in essence, it's "I hate the very idea but I can't get anything better", then I'd look for somebody who does want the job. But people look for work for all sorts of reasons. It could just as well be "I've been doing a high-stress, time-consuming job for many years and now I'd like something a little less taxing that gives me time to pursue other interests, and moreover, I do have an interest in this particular work for the following reasons". What I wouldn't do, is look at a list of qualifications and think oh, he knows more than he needs for this job and is therefore overqualified so we'll just cross him off the list.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:36:22 GMT

Clive That's the trouble It's too cushy on benefits That's why we really must change the tax/benefits system so people want to work-and give employers back the right to sack those they think are skiving The tax burden in this country has become unendurable

Wynne

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Mark Holmes — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:36:01 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

My brother had difficulty getting a job for about 12 months, he was over qualified for many jobs having a law degree and his LPC but under experienced for any job he was qualified for. Many people recruiting staff look at qualifications and think " Well he won't stay for long and we'll be back at Sq 1" So I understand the difficulties people can have.

[/quote]

Yes he has something but still hoping to move on.

This 'overqualified' <insert unprintable epithet here> infuriates me. Its proliferation everywhere is a direct inducement to everyone not to bother learning anything. Surely what should matter, when employing somebody, is not whether they can do other jobs, but whether they can do the one they're applying for? Directly linked to my other favourite hate, the notion that any learning not directly relevant to a specific, practical job is by definition useless. Yes, ok. Bread first. But bread secured, what on earth is wrong with jam?

Hope your brother's doing ok now

[/quote]

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:29:12 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

[/quote]

Hope your brother's doing ok now

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Clive Ansell — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:01:34 GMT

My brother in law owns a nursery in the Vale of Evesham that grows and supplies bedding plants to likes of Homebase and B&Q. He has a need for seasonal unskilled labour every year, and is he prepared to pay 10% over and above industry rates to get and retain decent staff. The local unemployed and the local youth just will not do it, so he buses in Polish and Lithuanian workers who he is very happy with and who are reliable and work hard.

I feel the locals who are able, but refuse the work, should be compelled to do it, or lose their benefits. Again, if the tax system was altered in favour of workers so that the low paid retained more of their money, they might be more inclined to accept the work.

My Brother in the US pays roughly 50% of the tax we pay here in the UK. In addition, any work related expenses such as clothing, lunch, travel are all fully tax deductible. Their tax system seem far more pro worker than ours. One of the nurses I am working with at the moment tells me in costs her 1 days wages per week just to put petrol in the car to get to work and back, that she would be better off on benefits. Maybe reducing transport costs would be another way of encouraging people to work?

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:36:38 GMT

There's going to be a big gap in the job market in years to come if immigrants have to find work paying in excess of £31,000. Many of the lower paid jobs - eg fruit picking, hotel workers etc. are predominantly done by immigrants.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Bob Russell — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:33:16 GMT

I can see nothing wrong with people moving to cheaper accommodation. If you cannot afford something you get something cheaper or do without. This is how it works if you are in work so why should benefits protect you from this.

There should be a buffer to protect the short term unemployed. The longer the period of unemployment the more belt-tightening is reasonable IMO.

Low paid jobs? What nationality were the staff last time you went to a fast-food restaurant? What nationality are the cleaners at the local hospital?

Are we not educating ourselves well enough to work at Burger King? Are we too good to use a broom and mop? The Daily Mail seems to think so and I suspect there is some truth in it!

How often do you hear "they cannot afford to work" or "he's better off on the dole"?

There is no one size fits all but to make things better it should never pay not to work. This must consist of making unemployment less 'attractive' and work more so. Carrot (lower taxes for the lower paid) and stick (benefits limited).

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Mark Holmes — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:12:58 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

Although I was arguing that benefits need to be capped at a level whereby people NEED to exert themselves not at a level where they can stay put.

[/quote]

What about people who either cannot exert themselves for health reasons, or people who do exert themselves but still can't get work?

[/quote]

It depends on the health problem. If my ongoing back issues stopped me form practicing for example I can think of a number of things I could try in order to earn some form of living, I might need some short or even medium term support but I would not accept that was it. There are a few illnesses where treatment alone needs so much commitment that work is not possible and these people need further support, possibly more than they get currently but giving an easy solution does not encourage people to be creative with what they can do.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 14:25:27 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

There are areas of Britain where there is no work to be had, but other areas where jobs are available. Is it so wrong to expect people to move house to get work if none is available? As vets we are in a privileged position where work is fairly easy to find, but if I lost my job I'd move house to get a new one, even if I was doing a low paid job unrelated to vetting.

[/quote]

Fair enough re the health reasons.

Don't think an expectation that people will move house is necessarily or always reasonable, though. For the young and those with no other pressing ties, I'd agree. But I couldn't have done it over the past seven years without leaving my mother almost completely without support, for instance - not an acceptable option. If I had to now I would, but I'd hate it. This has become my home. I've spent most of my life moving about, and the older you get, the more difficult the uprooting becomes - I'm done moving. At this point, I'd stack shelves first. Is it so wrong to expect that people should have the option of earning a living within striking distance of their homes?

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Laurence Webb — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 23:11:22 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]What about people who either cannot exert themselves for health reasons, or people who do exert themselves but still can't get work?[/quote] People with health problems that render them unable to work don't receive Job Seekers Allowance and are exempt from both the attempted change in benefits cap and this discussion. That assumes that they have regular medical assessments to determine that they are deserving of those benefits.

The Labour government were quite keen to have people on Disability Living Allowance, to the point that they were proposing having someone from the DWP in each doctors surgery, so that people leaving each consults could be advised if they were able to claim benefits. Moving people from the dole to disability keeping the unemployment figures down was just an unfortunate coincidence.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

plantagenet — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:51:24 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]We're currently sleeping in our log cabin because of building work at home. Lowest recorded temperature inside the cabin at night so far is -1C....[/quote]

Hats off to you, last time I slept in a room below zero, I wore my ski suit in bed. It's about 11 in here tonight - positively tropical.

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:57:40 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

Although I was arguing that benefits need to be capped at a level whereby people NEED to exert themselves not at a level where they can stay put.

[/quote]

What about people who either cannot exert themselves for health reasons, or people who do exert themselves but still can't get work?

Re: Breakdown of one families benefit spending

Rob Davis — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:44:31 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]Just out of interest we put a thermometer in out bedroom last night : +4 centigrade and ice inside the window.[/quote]

We're currently sleeping in our log cabin because of building work at home. Lowest recorded temperature inside the cabin at night so far is -1C....