Job application forms

Re: Job application forms

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:04:09 GMT

Last time I advertised for a veterinary nursing assistant I stopped counting at 60 applicants. Sending and reading 60+ application forms would have just added to the administrative burden. I ask applicants to apply by email including a copy of their CV then once I've sorted the wheat from the chaff the first short list is called for an interview and told to prepare to stop for the morning to come and watch us work and see how they react. We get them to fill out anaesthetic record charts or consent forms etc to test their written English skills, after all, someone could have written their application letter for them. They are then left with the nurses for a while - they are far better than me at judging character. It is most important that they have demonstrated a previous interest, even work experience, because it is interest in the job that is going to motivate them not the wages! I've never employed a full-time vet but again I wouldn't bother with an application form and I would assume that however bad their handwriting was they would be literate, no-one's writing could be worse than mine!, For locums, I want an informal reference from several previous employers and a chat or if possible for them to come to visit me - after all, we shouldn't forget, employees have to like us and our practice as much as we like them

Re: Job application forms

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:45:06 GMT

You wager correctly, but point taken.

(rats, he fixed it! :) )

Re: Job application forms

Neal Palk — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:29:04 GMT

This is not atypical and in many cases answers the OP's question. Application forms aren't too useful (but do have a purpose in monitoring the candidate profiles etc which can be a legal requirement) but a CV and covering letter will allow sorting the wheat from the chaff as it appears to have done successfully in the example above (60 applicants to 5 interviews).

We should all be careful though in accidentally judging people's typing skills instead of their professional skills (I'll wager there's a typo in this post of mine!), so if someone has accidentally left an application for a role in aeronautics in their letter but otherwise has the best profile, it is perhaps not good business to overlook them?

Re: Job application forms

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:51:58 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

<sigh>

I'll get me coat. Taxi for Bob Monkhouse plus one.

[/quote]

Ok, ok, my bad. I need to take a trip down youtube lane, I see! :p

Re: Job application forms

james herriot lied — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:32:56 GMT

<sigh>

I'll get me coat. Taxi for Bob Monkhouse plus one.

Re: Job application forms

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:28:14 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

(been practicing marital arts with my wife for a good 5 years now! :D)

[/quote]

So, how long have you been married?

[/quote]

Er, 5 years? I wasn't misspelling "martial" - I meant to say "Marital"! :)

Re: Job application forms

karen jones — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:18:35 GMT

The other week I read 60 CV's for a temporary, part time receptionist job at our branch surgery. Most were desperate for work, lots of spelling mistakes, covering letters with wrong name on top, obviously lots of copying and pasting. One started letter with "as you can see I am interested in a post in the aeronautical industry"??. We interviewed 5 with only one person any use.. The majority were obviously applying for every job they could but not relating their application to the job. The majority didn't even mention whether they liked animals or not,

Re: Job application forms

james herriot lied — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:31:43 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

(been practicing marital arts with my wife for a good 5 years now! :D)

[/quote]

So, how long have you been married?

Re: Job application forms

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:21:17 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I like to have a covering letter as well - how that is written tells you an awful lot about how much they actually want to work for yo[/quote]

Me too - ideally in the applicant's best joined-up handwriting.

I think I might have mentioned this before on another thread, but one of the best laughs we had was reading that one applicant spent their spare time "Practising the Marital Arts"

[/quote]

Vets with good penmanship? Whoever heard of such an incredible thing?! :p

(been practicing marital arts with my wife for a good 5 years now! :D)

Re: Job application forms

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:56:51 GMT

[quote user="Alasdair Mathieson"]

" I feel it is my destiny to work for you. " [7]

" It is my dream to work at your Clinic "

" I am very flexible, passionate and like exotics " [3]

" I want to work with you as my aim is to work in a zoo "

" Be assured - I speak floent Onglish "

" I feel I have the big credentials you need " [4]

" It would be a dream come true to work at Culloden " [9]

I don't need reality TV-speak, just normal spoken English. CV, covering letter and informal chat for me.

[/quote]

I can't think of the right superlative... I particularly like the zoo

Re: Job application forms

Gareth Dowdeswell — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:52:20 GMT

I guess that application forms might help you to filter out who is completely unsuitable for the job intially, no job I've applied for used them, at least prior to interview.

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

I also think that making references available at an early stage is an advantage.

[/quote]

I wasn't at all impressed by one job I applied for asking for references prior to interview, especially as after the interview it was very clear it wasn't a job I was interested in.

Re: Job application forms

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:51:49 GMT

Oh, I'm not arguing that a covering letter is a bad thing, or even that it shouldn't be a given! Just that it's the wrong medium for assessing communication skills. If it's any consolation, it's just as difficult from the other side of this particular fence... the pack sounds like a good idea

Re: Job application forms

Alasdair Mathieson — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:42:37 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I like to have a covering letter as well - how that is written tells you an awful lot about how much they actually want to work for yo[/quote]

Me too - ideally in the applicant's best joined-up handwriting.

I think I might have mentioned this before on another thread, but one of the best laughs we had was reading that one applicant spent their spare time "Practising the Marital Arts"

[/quote]I agree.

Some of our applicants have been watching Masterchef: marked out of 10.

" I feel it is my destiny to work for you. " [7]

" It is my dream to work at your Clinic "

" I am very flexible, passionate and like exotics " [3]

" I want to work with you as my aim is to work in a zoo "

" Be assured - I speak floent Onglish "

" I feel I have the big credentials you need " [4]

" It would be a dream come true to work at Culloden " [9]

I don't need reality TV-speak, just normal spoken English. CV, covering letter and informal chat for me.

Re: Job application forms

Clive Ansell — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:10:28 GMT

Reminds me of my students days, being told of someones slip of the pen on an exam script "Horses are obligate nose breeders"

Re: Job application forms

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:33:29 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I like to have a covering letter as well - how that is written tells you an awful lot about how much they actually want to work for yo[/quote]

Me too - ideally in the applicant's best joined-up handwriting.

I think I might have mentioned this before on another thread, but one of the best laughs we had was reading that one applicant spent their spare time "Practising the Marital Arts"

Re: Job application forms

Mark Rowland — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:18:23 GMT

Forgive me, I had assumed a covering letter was a given, at least when I have advertised it has been.

Again I agree. I think what most vets are looking for are difficult to put across on paper, let alone an application form. However I dont think it is impossible. I think I can create a mental image that has been reasonably accurate based on those that have gone on to be interviewed. I also think that making references available at an early stage is an advantage. I can see the jobs market becoming more challenging for applicants owing to volume increases. I would happily use application forms to help me to score my applicants but would not want to put he sort of vets I want off the position by presenting them with one. Rock and hard place spring to mind. I think an application pack might be a better idea so I can offset the form by giving applicants an idea of what I can offer them.

Hmmm

Re: Job application forms

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:37:13 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

I just think being able to fit in well and communicate in an honest way means as much to me as an employer.

[/quote]

Yes, but that's really quite difficult to demonstrate in writing for a job where the bulk of communication occurs in person. Anyone can state "I am an excellent team player and fantastic communicator and all my colleagues and clients love me"; but to even begin to assess the truth of that, you've got to meet people and, um, communicate with them. On the other hand, a list of relevant courses and qualification is simply a matter of fact, to be taken at face value unless the the applicant is actually lying.

Basically, a letter, CV, or any other single written document is totally the wrong medium for demonstrating or assessing the sort of skills you're talking about, like trying to assess whether somebody can play the guitar by reading an essay they've written on concierto de aranjuez. You can't even be sure via interview, but at least you've got a chance. I think it's even more difficult via forms than a freely written letter/CV, though.

As a general aside, is it my imagination, or is one of the problems for young people trying to find work that everybody wants someone with 2 years + experience? Circular difficulty - no experience, no job... no job, no experience. It may be why applicants put so much emphasis on it when they've got it.

Re: Job application forms

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:31:01 GMT

I like to have a covering letter as well - how that is written tells you an awful lot about how much they actually want to work for you, rather than just get any job. Not a fan of forms, I think it is harder to assess the individual with a rigid template.

Marie

Re: Job application forms

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:14:31 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

yes this is what I think, Perhaps i think that applicants should try to put across more about themselves than the long lists of achievements. I know that I would tailor my CV to the job i was after, I wonder if that is done now. Again im not trying to dumb down peoples efforts at gaining appropriate experience, I just think being able to fit in well and communicate in an honest way means as much to me as an employer.

[/quote]

Everyone should design a cv to fit the job they're looking for. Shows you're relevant to the position.

Re: Job application forms

Mark Rowland — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:30:01 GMT

Re: Job application forms

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:06:47 GMT

I hate them, never seen one yet that doesn't have questions that are unanswerable as they stand. I'd much rather write a CV that communicates basic facts, and then talk to somebody. In person.