speaking of whelpings...

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Clive Ansell — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:16:08 GMT

Does anyone use Ergotamine to aid post partum involution? I saw it used post c-section, and post normal whelping when seeing practice as a student, but I haven't come across it since.

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:07:08 GMT

I give the bottom of the dose range in the formulary, even less in a really tiny dog. the given dose range is huge, and seems to have no relation to perhaps a 3kg chi-watsit or an 80kg dane. I might well give a tiny dog 0.05ml IM, occasionally IV - hard to give much less! ( already placed an IV canula as we all know it's likely to go to caesar...!) and repeat 2-3 times depending on progress, i tend to give a a little more each time.

I also use oxytocin post casear if i have failed to convince the owner to let me spay the bitch.

Technically we charge time on manual whelpings so it is not to the clients' benefit to spend too much time faffing about - and certainly not in the bitches' and babies' interests either

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Mark Holmes — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:56:02 GMT

I would agree oxytocin good for a couple of stranglers but not a belly full. Early caesar before the bitch and pups knackered better success all round. Also all done dusted

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:42:54 GMT

I agree with Stephen

Is oxytocin any use for a bitch with a uterus full of pups? My impression is that it's OK for pushing out the last one or two, but before one is delivered at all, I seem to jab, wait, jab wait, possibly a puppy or two, jab wait, then caesar. There was a recent discussion about this on VETEEC (Vets Now) and this was an impression I was getting there too.

Neil

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:38:55 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Do any of you give it out for milk let down in dairy cows? [/quote]

Of course. May explain my different take on the use of it to the 'pet vets'?

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Clive Ansell — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:25:19 GMT

I give bottom end of the dose range, and will repeat to maximum of 3 times, but prefer to move to a c-section sooner rather than later (unless clients not eligible or can't afford it -see other thread)

I would never give out oxytocin to a pet owner, if an animal needs it, it needs a veterinary examination in my view. Do any of you give it out for milk let down in dairy cows?

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:28:58 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

You need to give serial doses, as little as possible, and i usually give a little IV calcium first to prime the uterine muscle...never sure if it really helps but..If you give too much oxytocin all you do is lock the uterus down with disorganised contractions. I usually try and assist manually as well, providing the bitch is a suitable size, and you realise pretty quickly if you are getting anywhere.

[/quote]

Yes, but do you dose per dog or per kg? Or do you mean you give 0.01ml, i.e., as little as will fit into a 1ml syringe, per dog regardless?

The more I read, the more it looks as though these doses are a matter of personal opinion/experience based on guidelines - there seems to be very little consensus. Fair enough, then at least I know where I am

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

you also need to pick your cases - the uterus must be open, and you need to be realistic about what kind of results you can get. Getting one or two remaining pups out of a tired bitch is feasible, but you will NOT shift a whole litter, and if there is an oversized pup - common in small litters, oxytocin is unlikely to help much either.

[/quote]

yep, agreed, it definitely needs to be open... this was a single remaining pup in a tired bitch.

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

Have to admit I would NEVER trust a client with oxytocin. Usually when they phone and ask to come in for a shot, it is inappropriate anyway, and I am pretty sure if they had some in their fridge at home it would get used.

[/quote]

I also agree with this!

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:32:06 GMT

Generally in the case of a genuine dystocia I feel the sooner you go to caesar, the sooner it's all over and the less risk to the mum and pups, and the added advantage that the client believes you have done everything you can.

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:20:18 GMT

So... should you dose per dog, or per kg? And why is there such a variance of opinion on this one?

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:15:19 GMT

It would have been significantly lower with this one though

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Andrew Kent — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:51:49 GMT

The new formulary doses are per kg rather than per dog which could actually work out at higher doses than previously. Andy

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:33:20 GMT

[quote user="phipps"]

Current best practice reccomendation from ECC experts is to use very low doses (0.5 - 1 iu or 0.05 - 0.1 ml per animal) of oxytocin. Higher doses are now not reccomended becuase uterine spasm, rather than organised contraction from the cranial to the caudal horn, occurs.

Caesarian is reccomended to be considered in preference to more than 2 doses of oxytocin, since oxytocin use has been associated with the birth of dead foetuses - premature separation of the placenta is cited as the potential eitiology for these still births.

[/quote]

Ah! Thank you, I didn't realize this, and it explains why the new Formulary has such a different dose from everywhere else! I was confused, and wondered if it was a typo; and ended up giving 0.2ml... still more than I should have obviously, but not as much as would have done before.The two emergency medicine books I checked have differing doses, which also differ from the data sheet. Not as different as all three are from the new recommendation, but still different.

Ended up doing a caesar after nothing moving with two doses. Nice, healthy puppy :0))

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Hanna Bennett — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:40:07 GMT

Interesting that you say bringing the bitch to the surgery delays things - often find it a surefire way to have a pup delivered in the car!

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Glen McIntosh — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:15:00 GMT

Re: speaking of whelpings...

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 21:02:28 GMT

Data sheet says 0.2-1ml. Most dogs I will give half a ml and if no response another half 30 mins later. Contrary to many on here I do dispense small amount to trusted clients to give only after speaking to me on the phone. I would never advise it if the bitch hadn't passed a puppy or was straining and passing nothing, but it sometimes gets things moving. Remember adrenaline antagonises oxytocin, dragging a whelping bitch to the surgery is bound to delay things.

Data Sheet