Is Mr Wray right?

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:13:10 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

What I don't get is why it matters. Why do women have to provide a title linked to marital status and men don't? I'd like to see a man's reaction if, everytime he tried to register at a doctors, buy something to be delivered, took out a subscription, etc. etc. etc, the person at the other end of the phone demanded to know whether he was Mr, Master, or Msr, and insisted that this information was mandatory and necessary. Bloomin' ridiculous.

</rant>

[/quote]

Not sure I am overly worried because the next question asked is almost invariably married, single etc. The question that worries me is next of kin because they only need that if things go wrong!

Ms was introduced to get round the need to divulge marital status. Now it often has a feminist 'stigma' attached! Mostly the loathing of the word is because it sounds silly - Muzzz or Mizzz!

I would have no objection to my marital status being known. I would doubt that most people would be that interested anyway!

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:52:20 GMT

</rant>

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:18:16 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Yes but doesn't Ms still suggest all of the above and some resentment of it which is surely worse? [/quote]

Possibly - but it could be someone in a relationship who chooses not to marry?

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]As far as I am concerned if you are Miss, say Miss and be proud[/quote]

hmmm - but not everyone is nice. Some people try to take advantage of women 'on their own', thinking they are more vulnerable. Some women don't want people knowing that they live on their own. My mum is a Mrs but is widowed, and hates workmen/people at the shop/delivery men etc finding out she is alone in the house. There is sometimes more to it than just appearances.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Mark Holmes — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:10:15 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

The reason somebody probably chooses to use Ms instead of Miss is probably linked to the fact that the status of an older Miss (spinster or just unmarried) is seen as a bit sad, 'left on the shelf' and against her will (unlikely to be true for any of them). 'Bachelor' brings up images of happy-go-lucky, free and someone making a positive lifestyle choice. Also remember that men get to be called Mr regardless of marital status. Would they want to be called Master all their life?

Although I also dislike the title Ms I can understand women choosing to use it.

[/quote]

Yes but doesn't Ms still suggest all of the above and some resentment of it which is surely worse? Before I get into some trouble I'm not saying I agree with the above perceptions. One of the most remarkable people I have ever known was an 80+ yr old Miss. In fact remaining Miss probably left her free to be as remarkable as she was. As far as I am concerned if you are Miss, say Miss and be proud, (although please don't be offended if I say Mrs by accident which does happen from time to time)

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:02:40 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]but I can't work women out at all.[/quote]

that really did make me laugh - haven't you learned not to try?

Although I also dislike the title Ms I can understand women choosing to use it.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:39:20 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]my first work place [/quote]

A farmer in Taranaki referred to me as "the short fat balding one".

I was 24 and NOT [IMO] balding.......

It is not uncommon, when one refers to a woman by "Miss" to be firmly corrected to Ms.

There appears to be some implied reference to sexual experience or marital availability but I can't work women out at all.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:30:40 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

In Mozambique the Portuguese tradition was followed, calling vets (and medics) " doutor(a) first name". In the first 7 years after independence this became "camarada doutora". Children (herding cattle or goats, or bringing their dogs for vaccination) however would call me "titia" (aunty). What really shocked me was when I went back to my first work place 25 years later and they called me "vovo" (granny)!!!

Mariette

[/quote]

I'm sorry Mariette, but that really made me laugh

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:13:46 GMT

Mariette

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:39:11 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I have tried pronouncing it "Mistress" occasionally.[/quote]

I bet that goes down well!

Niall

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:59:58 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]

I was speaking in Germany recently, sharing the platform with a colleague from Hannover vet school - "Doctor" because that is the convention in Germany when addressing vets. However, he had gained a PhD and recently been promoted to chair of vet surgery and consequently he was introduced to the audience as "Herr Professor Doctor Doctor"

[/quote]

LOL. Yes, it does get interesting when people have several degrees. But most people don't use those titles outside of the academic environment, at least not in my experience. And I was going off on a slight tangent... one of my pet hates, that I keep getting asked if it's Mrs, Miss, or a bumblebee, but men never get asked if it's Master or Mr... why is my marital status anybody's business but my own? I've resorted to refusing all titles altogether and just using my first name - which brings us back to where the thread started :0)

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:36:19 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]I was speaking in Germany recently, sharing the platform with a colleague from Hannover vet school - "Doctor" because that is the convention in Germany when addressing vets. However, he had gained a PhD and recently been promoted to chair of vet surgery and consequently he was introduced to the audience as "Herr Professor Doctor Doctor"[/quote]

Yeh. I knew a Herr Professor Dr. Dr. Dr. Schmidt once. He actually had that printed on his envelopes.

[/quote]

A couple of years ago I was on a skiing trip in Davos and the hotel was shared with a large number of Lords, Ladies and Right Honourables as our stay coincided with the annual Parliamentary Ski Competition between our lot and the Swiss parliament, needless to say they were mostly conservatives! Because the hotel knew I was a vet I was down on the guest list as Dr even though I didn't suggest I had that title, which made me feel a little less humble.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Bob Russell — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:31:49 GMT

My father regularly received letters (mostly from the far side of the Iron curtain in the 1960's) addressed to Herr Professor Dr Dr Russell. He had a PhD, ScD, BA, MSc, MiBiol,DipEnt and a few more I cannot remember, which went after his name!!

It looked very impressive on envelopes and you had to admire the attention to detail!

(He was also a university professor!!)

He was known as Prof. Russell but he let me call him dad on a good day!

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:22:15 GMT

Yeh. I knew a Herr Professor Dr. Dr. Dr. Schmidt once. He actually had that printed on his envelopes.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:18:46 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]I do find Ms difficult to say and use - I think the French have it right that Mme is a sign of respect at a fairly young age or if marital status is known and Mlle is reserved for the young and sometimes to flatter the older female.[/quote]

I quite agree. You can't literally say "Ms" because it's an abbreviation; but it's an abbreviation for a non-existent word. I have tried pronouncing it "Mistress" occasionally. It was made up for inexplicable reasons as something to write. I refuse to use it unless specifically requested by the individual.

Many European countries have the same custom as the French. Frau or Signora, Fraülein or Signorina. You have to be careful with the diminutive though: sometimes it might flatter, sometimes it might be seen as slightly over-familiar or patronising.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Judith Joyce — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:08:28 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]It was much easier in Germany, where everybody was simply Frau/Herr[/quote]

It isn't always that simple.

Malcolm N

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:51:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="plantagenet"]I do find Ms difficult to say and use[/quote]

...and it's ghastly.

[/quote]

I hate it. Makes me sound like a bumblebee. I find the UK very confused about titles. It was much easier in Germany, where everybody was simply Frau/Herr, as soon as they reached an approximation of adulthood.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:49:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"][quote user="plantagenet"]I do find Ms difficult to say and use[/quote]

...and it's ghastly.

Right up there at the top of my list of pet hates, alongside use of the word 'partner' in place of husband / wife / boyfriend / girlfriend.[/quote]

Niall

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:54:48 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]I do find Ms difficult to say and use[/quote]

...and it's ghastly.

Right up there at the top of my list of pet hates, alongside use of the word 'partner' in place of husband / wife / boyfriend / girlfriend.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

plantagenet — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:28:51 GMT

I have always used my first name to avoid using a difficult surname and I don't think I command less respect for it. My children call their teachers Mr/Mrs/Dr/Miss as appropriate to their faces and a host of amusing nicknames behind their backs. To us parents, they tend to use first names or first+surnames both written and spoken. If I were talking to a teacher with my child present, both they and I switch to the formal.

I do find Ms difficult to say and use - I think the French have it right that Mme is a sign of respect at a fairly young age or if marital status is known and Mlle is reserved for the young and sometimes to flatter the older female.

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

J G Wray — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:26:05 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]As much as it pains me to say this and as much as I choke on my words I have come to the conclusion that Mr Wray may be right.[/quote]

Mr Wray isn't right, he just has opinions to be taken or left or whatever

JGW

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Mark Rowland — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:15:17 GMT

Well If I insisted on formality, I wouyld never have recieved this quality piece of chinaware from one of my tortoise clients tonight, I know that for sure

btw I dont recommend what they are feeding

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Ian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:04:30 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"] I wouldn't presume to call them David or Sarah without direct permission.[/quote]

Wouldn't "Prime Minister" be the correct form of address!

[/quote]

That would be David & Samantha. Sarah was Gordon Brown's wife - unless you know some gossip I don't

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Rob Davis — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:07:14 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"] I wouldn't presume to call them David or Sarah without direct permission.[/quote]

Wouldn't "Prime Minister" be the correct form of address!

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:34:04 GMT

I hate clients new clients who come in over-friendly and want to know my first name, my experience are that these are the ones who are over-fussy, expect special consideration and are just as likely to be the first to clear off if things don't go according to their expectations. Equally I feel uncomfortable calling them by their first name, I feel they deserve more respect and vice-versa. However my bonded clients are on first name terms if they want to be, although the older generation still tend to be on Mr and Mrs terms, but we have mutually earned that privilege and they are in no doubt as to my professionalism by this stage. But maybe I'm just a grumpy old man. This may be one reason why many clients are going to the new vet up the road who's practice is even known my his first name, although it could be because he charges half what I do!

Re: Is Mr Wray right?

Ian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:08:20 GMT

No I didn't misunderstand you, I perhaps didn't express myself clearly enough. I would still refer to my children's teachers by their surname unless I knew them out of school (I know one teacher socially but would always call him Mr X at his place of work). I would need to be consistent in their name depending on whether my children were around or not but also the relationship to someone who is helping mould my children into their future selfs needs to be of the highest order. I would expect their teachers to call me Mr Mostyn in return.

Ian