Dog breeds and their defects

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:55:35 GMT

I suppose I should have said native not own environment

Wynne

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:45:10 GMT

PS toabove Collies aren't hyperactive-in their own environment-they've been bred for a very specific job which requires both intelligence and physical stamina

Wynne

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:43:11 GMT

Arlo Try contacting a hill farmer and asking if you can accompany the dog on a day when they're gathering-then try keeping up-with the dog-step for step-not the farmer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think whoever wins the marathon inthe Olympics might have a chance-everyone else-not a hope

Wynne

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Alex Gough — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:36:06 GMT

I passed on (anonymised) some comments from this thread to Carol Fowler who created the site and this was her reply.

Alex

HI Alex

Thanks for passing on the comments.

Would you tell your colleagues on the forum that I would be very pleased to receive any feedback on a particular breed so that I can make the information better/more helpful? I'll look at MVD on the CKCS page and add something.

I also agree on 'WTF are you thinking' with some of the breeds. How about 'not ideally suited as a family pet'? Many breed enthusiasts will not like this exposure so have to be careful about the language. For example I had about 6 emails from Saint Bernard breeders who objected to me saying that this dog does not make a suitable family pet.

I'll continue to improve it - and any comments from vets are very welcome.

Regards

Carol

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Alison McIntosh — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:42:02 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

I think there's a big difference between breeds that have been deliberately developed to be pets eg CKCS where quiet temperament and the ability to live in a family home have been selected for, and working breeds where selection is for intelligence, ability to think for themselves, endurance, etc depending on breed. You only have to be in practice for a short time to see the much higher proportion of behavioural problems with understimulated working breeds - particularly when people buy from working strains like farm collie pups. Jack Russells and Cocker spaniels are another two breeds I think are over-represented. People buy them because they're small and cute, thinking they'll automatically be easier to handle than a big breed, but they need to be busy, or like bright kids in a boring lesson, they'll look for ways to amuse themselves.

Saying that there's a lot of individual variation - my first collie (ex-farm - reject) was a couch potato, ridiculously clumsy, thick as two short planks, scared of sheep, not keen on long walks and basically the complete opposite of the breed.

[/quote]

The exception to the working breed rule being the working labrador versus the show strain...I see a big difference in temperament with the working strain making better, more biddable, sensible family pets and the show strain generally being bouncier, less trainable, more of a handful generally. Of course, then you could argue that the working strain are more sought after by those clued up on dog behaviour, therefore that tends to select for sensible owners, therefore the dogs tend to be better stimulated and happier anyway and therefore better trained...hmm, complicated!

Otherwise I completely agree! :)

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Utlendigur — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:05:34 GMT

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:57:32 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Collies for example should have exercise, work and mental stimulation beyond that which is normally practical for your average family and I consider it a welfare concern that the majority don't receive it.[/quote]

I'd be really intrigued to know who says collies (or any breed for that matter) need more exercise / mental stimulation than another, and how they know. Serious question.

[/quote]

My collie has been sleeping all day (at work). She enjoys exercise but also lifts an eyelid disapprovingly if it is pi**ing down with rain outside before going back to sleep.

She likes activity around her but I am not convinced she needs any more exercise than the others do.

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Claire Godfrey — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:12:26 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'd be really intrigued to know who says collies (or any breed for that matter) need more exercise / mental stimulation than another, and how they know. Serious question.[/quote]

Come and meet my Collie! If he's bored he'll wrap himself in the floor length curtains, or turn the touch lamp on, or worse still if he really wants your attention he'll push the fake coals off the fire ( it only works if they are in exactly the right place!). He just has to be doing something!

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Anne Seawright — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:14:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I'd be really intrigued to know who says collies (or any breed for that matter) need more exercise / mental stimulation than another, and how they know. Serious question.

[/quote] Depends what characteristics we have selected for in breeding over the centuries...... Collies selected for reactivity, ability to focus on livestock for long periods of time potentially, and their sensitivity to their handler. We then wonder why they are reactive, get obsessed by things like lights and are nervous.....of course there are major individual differences as well based on individual genetics, priming of the HPA axis in utero, socialisation and life experiences.

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Mark Holmes — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:42:07 GMT

.[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I'd be really intrigued to know who says collies (or any breed for that matter) need more exercise / mental stimulation than another, and how they know. Serious question.

[/quote]

If you had ever owned a Collie vs a Whippet for example you would appreciate the difference instantly. Whippets turn themselves off when not required. A bit like a TV with automatic standby. Collies explode and eat your furniture.

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:37:19 GMT

I'd be really intrigued to know who says collies (or any breed for that matter) need more exercise / mental stimulation than another, and how they know. Serious question.

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Utlendigur — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:14:18 GMT

On the site I particularly liked the rules on choosing a dog and the section on responsibilities, which didn't just focus on inherited diseases but advised against dog breeds with exagerated conformations. I found the breed search didn't always work, and it took me a while to work out that the "breed information pages" tab had an alphabetical list as I was clicking on "about breed information pages" thinking they were the same. The lifestyle info was pretty spot-on eg boxer "An owner would also need to be tolerant of his drooling and flatulence"! but I was surprised there was no mention of fear aggression with GSDs since we seem to see a huge number of fearful ones. I wonder whether it might be worth adding average lifespans (if that info exists) for different breeds?

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Utlendigur — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:11:28 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"] They come to the surgery in their late 60's/70's with their walking sticks/mobility scooter, bad eye sight arthritis and new lab puppy. [/quote]

Worst one I remember was the couple in their late 60s/early 70s who came in with a collie pup off a farm. Suggestions that maybe it wasn't the best breed were ignored. Fast forward 6-12months and they kept coming in complaining there was something wrong with the dog because she kept running off on walks. Husband had tunnel vision, wife had arthritis - she could see the dog but couldn't go after her, husband was quite sprightly on his legs but couldn't see the dog

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:33:21 GMT

The site owner has a CKC, so I looked for that one on her site, and the entry seems fair; although it seems to me that a bit more weighting might make it even more informative. There's a long list of possible problems all given equal weight; some of which aren't that common. Heart disease on the other hand is only mentioned as part of a screening scheme as opposed to something the majority of these dogs will develop sooner or later, and probably die of.

Good idea, and impressive effort on her part.

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Mark Holmes — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:40:38 GMT

OK by me, this is something I have thought the profession should push more aggressively. In fact its probably the area we can best influence animal welfare and do the most good. In appropriate breed selection is probably the single biggest factor in welfare we have.

Another thing which should be included is that appropriate breed selection may change according to your lifestage. How many clients do you see who have always had labradors for example. They come to the surgery in their late 60's/70's with their walking sticks/mobility scooter, bad eye sight arthritis and new lab puppy. You might have the time and energy in invest in a young spaniel in your early 20's but much less time in your mid 30's with work and young family as another example. (me)

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Alex Gough — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:28:14 GMT

Is everyone happy for me to pass feedback from here to the site owner? I think she will be pleased with the comments so far, but will like constructive critcism.

Alex

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Mark Holmes — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:12:15 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]It should expend more space to the principle that a dog's breed is far more than branding and has real behavioural and welfare implications[/quote]

On the welfare angle, there are clearly some breeds which have a wider range of known inherited disease and predisposition to defect. I'm not sure anyone is making the point that taking these breeds on e.g. Labradors, because they have subjective behavioural virtues, is only part of the selection process. Another part of the choice of dog breed is, surely for those best informed, e.g. vets (as owners) an understanding and willingness to cope with and pay for treatment of their defect/disease. I don't see anyone making this point - for that you'd need to interview/survey vet owners of these breeds to confirm they know what they're letting themselves in for.

Then there's the x factor in the choice of breed, which may be emotional or venal or selection for a purpose e.g working ability.

Drawing all of these together looks like a sensible thing to do to me, but who should do it?

JGW

[/quote]

To be honest my point ran a little deeper than medical issues, which whilst important I think only touch the surface as far as welfare is concerned.

Speak to clients and the overriding consideration when they purchase a dog it that it appeals to them aesthetically. In a sense that a dog is a dog and it looks like model A B or C which is well removed from the case. When I worked in Dewsbury the Dog Du Jour was a Husky and I saw so many that were kept in a flat. Little more than a fashion excessory.

Collies for example should have exercise, work and mental stimulation beyond that which is normally practical for your average family and I consider it a welfare concern that the majority don't receive it. Where as a whippet is probably much more appropriate but over looked at people prefer the look and perception of a collie over a whippet.

Its a bit police state to suggest it but maybe there should be a list of breeds which are suitable for the general public and ownership of the rest should be subjuect to licensing. Not so much ban the breed as ok the breed.

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Judith Joyce — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:59:40 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Drawing all of these together looks like a sensible thing to do to me, but who should do it?[/quote]

?? Social Services - presumably they have some time on their hands now that adoption is being fast-tracked.

Malcolm N

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

J G Wray — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:35:34 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]It should expend more space to the principle that a dog's breed is far more than branding and has real behavioural and welfare implications[/quote]

Then there's the x factor in the choice of breed, which may be emotional or venal or selection for a purpose e.g working ability.

Drawing all of these together looks like a sensible thing to do to me, but who should do it?

JGW

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

bob lehner — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:24:32 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I would have liked stronger wording for the breeds I have looked at (Shar pei, Bull dog and Husky, Dogue de Bordeux) Something along the lines of "WTF ARE YOU THINKING"[/quote]

Seems like a very good idea - and from what I have looked at, pretty fair, particularly on medical issues.

I would agree that perhaps a bit more emphasis on temperament would be good - although to be fair there are comments such as - Weimaraner - 'He does not make an ideal family dog.'

Perhaps an additional statistic for each breed 'How rated by vets as a family pet' might be very useful .....!

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:00:33 GMT

Good idea, and as far as I can see, very fair

Wynne

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Mark Holmes — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:58:17 GMT

The website will be a useful resource although I would have liked stronger wording for the breeds I have looked at (Shar pei, Bull dog and Husky, Dogue de Bordeux) Something along the lines of "WTF ARE YOU THINKING"

It should expend more space to the principle that a dog's breed is far more than branding and has real behavioural and welfare implications

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Alex Gough — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:51:16 GMT

The author of this site came to visit me to discuss it when she was in the early planning stages. I found her pleasant, and committed to improving the lot of breeds in conjunction with vets. I think the website will be a valuable resource, and in conjunction with the survey Arlo is doing, might be a good way of putting the issue back in the press.

Alex

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Laurence Webb — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:53:27 GMT

I've only looked at 3 or 4 breeds, but it looks rather good so far.

Re: Dog breeds and their defects

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:25:04 GMT

You got the poster through the post too?