Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Mike Martin — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:31:11 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"] the time period the credit is held is much less than the time the insurance company will take to settle the claim.[/quote]

Correct. We investigated this option. The CC pre-auth lasts up to 10 days, so it would not be long enough for direct insurance claims. It might be useful for non-regular clients in general practice.

Also, I don't like enforcing procedures that inconvenience 99% of good clients just for the rare difficult ones.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Kate Richardson — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:22:12 GMT

[quote user="Becky Tee"]I'm sorry that this is going to sound a bit vague. However I used to work in a practice where we had some sort of credit card system for large bills. You could swipe the owner's credit card and get them to sign the paperwork (or maybe put their PIN in). This didn't take any money from their card but it "ring fenced" it so that they couldn't spend it and it stayed available to the practice. If there was a problem with the insurance money not coming through or the client refusing to pay then you could just take the agreed amount from the credit card without any further owner permision. We seemed to stop doing this after a while so I'm not sure if there were legal issues but there certainly was a facility to do it. It also gave an early warning to anyone who refused to provide their card that there might be a problem with payment.[/quote]

Hotels do it when you check in. Is there a legal difference between their business and ours?

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:21:26 GMT

[quote user="Becky Tee"]This didn't take any money from their card but it "ring fenced"[/quote]

Credit card pre-authorisation, like hotels do in case you drink all the contents of the minibar. However, AFAIK, the time period the credit is held is much less than the time the insurance company will take to settle the claim.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Becky Tee — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 10:41:18 GMT

I'm sorry that this is going to sound a bit vague. However I used to work in a practice where we had some sort of credit card system for large bills. You could swipe the owner's credit card and get them to sign the paperwork (or maybe put their PIN in). This didn't take any money from their card but it "ring fenced" it so that they couldn't spend it and it stayed available to the practice. If there was a problem with the insurance money not coming through or the client refusing to pay then you could just take the agreed amount from the credit card without any further owner permision. We seemed to stop doing this after a while so I'm not sure if there were legal issues but there certainly was a facility to do it. It also gave an early warning to anyone who refused to provide their card that there might be a problem with payment.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:50:20 GMT

You should have added a TUHS (totally unnecessary hassle surcharge)

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Mike Martin — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:33:20 GMT

Update and final outcome.....

Within 2 weeks after completing the online small claims court submission we received a cheque for the full amount from Halifax.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Lorna McHardy — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:51:57 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Good luck

[/quote]

seconded

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:40:32 GMT

Good luck

Wynne

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Mike Martin — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 16:37:55 GMT

An update on this issue.....

My solicitor was of the opinion that a telephone 'pre-auth' for the direct claim, amounted to a contract - be it verbal - but a contract nevertheless. On that basis, my solicitor issued a letter giving 7 days to settle their account, or legal proceedings would ensue. They have not paid. So an online small claims court proceeding has been issued.

I'll keep you posted.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 21:48:11 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]I was able to take out a BMI credit card, which paid for the procedure in full and then I had 6 months interest-free credit to pay it off.[/quote]

This is fine for an elective procedure, as you had time to organise this. Not so good for an emergency though.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:17:24 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

I worked in an OOH centre for 2 years, and they had a very strict approach for payments. Firstly everyone was made aware of the initial OOH fee and consult and that this was payable at the time. Secondly, you had to do an estimate for the treatment if you had to admit an animal, and the client had to pay this estimate in full before the animal was admitted. If they couldn't/wouldn't pay then euthanasia was offered if appropriate in accordance with the G to PC. I remember having to do a Caesar once in the middle of the night and the client had to go to the local cashpoint to draw out £500 cash before we went ahead.

What's wrong with that?

[/quote]

In theory, not a thing. In practice, I suppose it depends on how you feel about euthanasing things with fixable conditions, and in particular, which fixable conditions. Also on how you cope emotionally with owners who you believe to be genuinely unable to pay, but deeply attached to their animal with the fixable condition (cue discussion about social responsibility). I understand economic necessity, but find the balance difficult. I can rant with the best of them about how people who can't afford necessary treatment shouldn't take on animals, and I deeply resent the kind of owner who responds to information about OOH costs with "so you're just going to let him die, then!!" or "so you're refusing to treat him, then!!". But presented with the animal in question and a more reasonable but impecunious owner, it becomes my specific problem as opposed to a theoretical formulation of a veterinary ideal. Euthanasia is undoubtedly a treatment option, but it shouldn't be the way out of financial embarrassment. This is the breaking point of idealism, and if ever I become a veterinary statistic, that'll be why.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:55:26 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Maybe the logical way forward is no direct claims at all.

[/quote]

We used to do that (because of the usual hassle recovering the excess) but it doesn't work, because then we get a regular supply of "but I don't have that much money, that's why I'm insured!" and a flat refusal to pay... I'm talking about an emergency out of hours service, which makes things more difficult. I can't not treat something that clearly needs treating urgently and is insured simply because the owners won't pay upfront. So now we do direct claims whenever an owner can't/won't pay and claim back; and whenever possible, get a deposit for anything that's admitted.

[/quote]

What's wrong with that? In 2006 I had an ACL repair done privately, and I was not insured at the time. It cost me £5,000 and I had to pay it in full, up front before the surgery. I was able to take out a BMI credit card, which paid for the procedure in full and then I had 6 months interest-free credit to pay it off.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:31:21 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Maybe the logical way forward is no direct claims at all.

[/quote]

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 19:21:32 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]

The Halifax says, as far as they are concerned the claim has been paid out, we're sorry we made a mistake; you have to get it back off the client! We have pestered them on the phone a lot.

[/quote]

Remind me to have nothing to do with them :0(

Hope you manage get your fee eventually!

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:07:10 GMT

One of the OOH clinics I worked in had a policy of credit scoring clients who used to pay by cheque, or for the very rare occasions when credit was given or direct insurance claims agreed. I cannot remember the company involved, but it involved a 5 minute or so phone call where the company would run a credit check/score, and would then guarantee any cheque payment for a percentage fee that was passed on to the client. Obviously those paying by credit or debit card were not involved as payment is guaranteed. It would flag up anyone with poor credit rating or anyone with a CCJ against them. Funnily enough, those few clients that complained (most did not) where the ones where credit was often refused.

It would not be 100% foolproof of course, but at least it would help to guard against serial bad debtors, career crooks, and those who make a living by stealing from everywhere they go.

Maybe another approach is to offer a small incentive or discount for an advance payment. Has anyone actually calculated the cost in administration and bank interest on chasing bad debts?

I am just about to embark on some dental work, my dentist asks for 50% in advance of treatment, and any lab fees for crowns etc are paid before the work is requested. fair enough.

I still think the best way to avoid credit problems is not to give credit.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:25:55 GMT

You're probably right Malcolm

I'm definitely of the view that direct claims are worthwhile if the alternative is an unnecessary euthanasia-but it does mean a lot owing at any one time, and occasionalbad debts

Wynne

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Judith Joyce — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 15:02:21 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]All I can say is my sympathy Malcolm-nodoubt if you stood outside the kid's schools with a placard detailing these horrible peoples debts,you would end up paying compensation for harrassing them[/quote]

If I loitered outside a school playground and got away with nothing more than accusations of harassment, in the greater scheme of things that would probably be a good result!!

Malcolm N

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Mark Holmes — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:46:34 GMT

I can completely understand the frustration in looking at a bad debts list and being sickened by the loss of money in bad debt. However I have worked in practices which positively ecouraged direct claims and money in staffing the policy. I have also worked in practices where they are not accepted and I see the lost revenue and lost clients as a consequence. This may not apply to everyone but I have started to accept that some bad debt from direct claims is a necessary "investiment" in the additional revenue direct claims create. If there were a way to isolate and see how much extra profit were created by the direct claim and see this next to the bad bebt, it might not looks so bad.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:30:49 GMT

My sympathies too - a nightmare situation. We have had some smaller issues with ongoing clients - mainly when they have always had direct claims and then as the pet ages the company starts to take a percentage excess - giving a very complicated bill. We also had one equine case that was insured for a much lower amount in total than the owner stated, and they then refused to pay more saying that they had informed us (which of course they hadn't).

It may not help much, and I'm not sure where it would stand in court, but as a result of some of these issues we have added a line or two to our admissions forms and anaesthetic forms, to state that the owner agrees to pay all accounts not covered by insurance, or for any money not paid to us by their insurance company. Makes us feel better, but not sure how effective it is!

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:36:18 GMT

All I can say is my sympathy Malcolm-nodoubt if you stood outside the kid's schools with a placard detailing these horrible peoples debts,you would end up paying compensation for harrassing them -it's a crazy, crazy world

Wynne

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Judith Joyce — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:21:31 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]Why is it that only Pet Insurance companies work in this way? To my understanding, Medical claims and car crash claims all go direct with no hassles. How does that work?[/quote]

I believe that it is because the garage/practice is a preferred provider that has a contractual relationship with the insurance company - an arrangement that could work with pet health insurance but that would probably not be universally popular!

Malcolm N

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Mike Martin — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:04:21 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Maybe the logical way forward is no direct claims at all. [/quote]

Yes, I agree. And I'd like to do that. But I think there are people out there who do not have sufficient cash in their account. So I believe we would lose some business. That's the catch for me.

Secondly we get grief from some referring vets for delaying seeing a case a couple of days until pre-auths have been done and completed; moan when we request the complete computer history of the patient for the insurance company; etc. But....most are good customers and are understanding.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Mike Martin — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:00:26 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]the client contacted insurer behind our backs and rescinded the direct claim agreement.[/quote]

I didn't know this could be done!!!

We as a profession need our association/s to sort out some sort of legal contract between vets and insurance companies. How could we push for this to be done?

Why is it that only Pet Insurance companies work in this way? To my understanding, Medical claims and car crash claims all go direct with no hassles. How does that work?

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:44:24 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]

So for the future: if we vets have no legal contract with a Pet Insurance company even after having agreed a direct claim - why should we agree to direct claims? Can BVA/BSAVA maybe draft up some form of letter as a legal contract that we vets can ask the insurance company to sign, binding them to pay us (even if they make a mistake)?

[/quote]

Maybe the logical way forward is no direct claims at all. Most, if not all, the practices I work in have bad debts relating to unsettled insurance claims, excesses not paid, and payments going to the owner not the practice. Most people could use a credit card, arrange a short term bank loan or phone a friend. In fact why not go a step further and insist on advance payment or a retaining credit card details, as do hotels, car hire companies etc.

I know of a similar case; a dog with lymphoma on on going chemotherapy where a direct claim was agreed with Petplan. case dragged on for about 2 years before PTS, where upon Petplan only paid a percentage and paid the owner directly. Owners now not willing to pay the bill, and are finding things wrong with the management of the case in order to get the bill reduced or waived.

Re: Halifax Pet Insurance issues....what would you do?

Judith Joyce — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 10:38:14 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]The latest change to our protocol to tackle this was, to request a £100 deposit from the owner up front! This works a treat. Initially we said we wanted a deposit for the "excess", but owners would get argumentive about having already paid this to their primary vet. But as some vets are slower submitting their claim - our claim might be first in. So we simply changed the wording to say is it a "deposit for any unforeseen descrepencies; we will pay it back when the claim is settled".[/quote]

We were stung this way some years ago except in our case the client contacted insurer behind our backs and rescinded the direct claim agreement. We have evolved a system similar to yours for all the same reasons but it is far from perfect and it is starting to creak now that the insurers are having a hard time in the market. We followed our miscreant through the civil courts and are currently receiving 50p a month on a £1900=00 bill - these people were career crooks and owed more than £200k to a variety of people including all the local stores, all the utilities as well as VAT and inland revenue. Their kids were still at private school though!!

Malcolm N